TargetTalk

Looking to get a pistol for International Standard Pistol. Been looking at the Walthers. I know the GSP Expert is well known to be an excellent pistol and reliable but I was thinking if I was gonna spend that kind of money I would go with the latest technology like the SSP. But with the SSP am I inviting problems? Also thought about a Pardini SP20new or a FWB AW93. I'm sure any of these are great guns and any can and do have problems but does anybody have any insight as to which way to go? Scott

SMBeyer wrote:Looking to get a pistol for International Standard Pistol..... would go with the latest technology like the SSP. But with the SSP am I inviting problems? Also thought about a Pardini SP20new or a FWB AW93.....

Some say the SSP is too light weight. For me, the deal killer was the ridiculous number of parts in the thing. As well, the parts look, feel and interact like they were stamped out in a toy factory. It's a marvel of engineering masturbation. Compare to the brilliant simplicity of the Pardini SP New.

I like my SSP, haven't had any issues what so ever.

SMBeyer wrote:Looking to get a pistol for International Standard Pistol. Been looking at the Walthers. I know the GSP Expert is well known to be an excellent pistol and reliable but I was thinking if I was gonna spend that kind of money I would go with the latest technology like the SSP. But with the SSP am I inviting problems? Also thought about a Pardini SP20new or a FWB AW93. I'm sure any of these are great guns and any can and do have problems but does anybody have any insight as to which way to go? Scott

SSP is indeed very complicated and I am also not sure that all this complication brings any benefit vs. simple design like the Pardini and Morini. Cleaning of the SSP is also much more work than on the Pardini and Morini (for both, a single bold is enough to dismount for cleaning).

About the AW93, it is a very different design with a much more vertical grip, usually, if you like pistols as the SSP, Pardini, Morini, Matchgun, you won't like the AW93. The opposite is also valid. It is really a question of taste, you have to try to find out what you like/fits for you.

About the GSP Expert, well it is slowily becoming absolete compared to the other pistols mentioned and costs new the same price. So for me, a used GSP makes sense, buying a new one at the full price doesn't. Btw, it has also a more vertical grip than the SSP, Pardini...

jipe wrote: Cleaning of the SSP is also much moree work than on the Pardini and Morini (for both, a single bold is enough to dismount for cleaning).

I will respectfully disagree. The use of the take down tool does'nt overcomplicate things in my opinion, and you can still take the top off without using it to do a quick cleaning if you want to save the extra 30 seconds.

My experience with SSP is that early SSP had some quality isues plus the need for new style magazines (double stack). However this should not take SSP out of your shopping list. Some feel it is light. i agree but then thats what weights are for. The cleaning of whatever airgun-firearm i own is done at home so even the added hassle of the special tool of the SSP should not worry you. Construction quality is very good and i believe the extra complexity comes from the fact that SSP was designed with e-trigger in mind ( my personal opinion). Bottom line go to your local dealer and try it :)
It was in my shopping list but decided to go the MG way. Was i right or wrong only time will tell.

Makris D. G. wrote:

jipe wrote: Cleaning of the SSP is also much moree work than on the Pardini and Morini (for both, a single bold is enough to dismount for cleaning).

I will respectfully disagree. The use of the take down tool does'nt overcomplicate things in my opinion, and you can still take the top off without using it to do a quick cleaning if you want to save the extra 30 seconds.

Cleaning of SSP is of course possible but if you compare with the Pardini and Morini, cleaning of Pardini and Morini is easier:
- there are less parts to clean on those two,.
- no quick or in depth cleaning, just the quick one.
- no special take down tool to use at all.
- less bolds to dismount/remount...

Now I seem to be leaning towards the Pardini. I don't think I have heard anyone that didn't like the one they have. As far as grip angle goes either would be fine with me. I shoot my LP10 and am comfortable with it but I am also comfortable with my 1911's and S&W 41 which have the more verticle grip. But if I'm gonna shoot an international event the LP10 and Pardini will feel closer to the same to shoot one right after the other. Is there much benefit to buying the RF model or are they both about the same? Scott

SMBeyer wrote:Now I seem to be leaning towards the Pardini. I don't think I have heard anyone that didn't like the one they have. As far as grip angle goes either would be fine with me. I shoot my LP10 and am comfortable with it but I am also comfortable with my 1911's and S&W 41 which have the more verticle grip. But if I'm gonna shoot an international event the LP10 and Pardini will feel closer to the same to shoot one right after the other. Is there much benefit to buying the RF model or are they both about the same? Scott

There was a big discussion about the different barrel and lower accuracy of the RF, I think that the conclusion is that if you do not shoot RF, you should not buy an RF version. Of course for RF shooting, the RF is best suited.

If you want to have your feelings of both pistol as close as possibile, use a Rink grip for both of them, the shape and size of both grips will then be almost identical. If you buy your Pardini new, try to buy it without grip and buy the Rink grip separately, it will avoid to pay two grips.

I sure the arguments were the same when going from flint locks to cartridge firearms too, these new guns just to many parts and are too hard to clean.

Pistols such as the Walther SSP, and MG2 are a new design with innovations are they different and more complex yes. If you want those innovations then maybe taking 30 seconds more to clean it is the price you pay.

The only extra parts on a SSP are to do with the damping system which are relatively passive and consist of some springs a piston a valve. From an operational system the striker system is somewhat simpler than the the hammer firing pin system. Strikers have been proven as they are common place in many handguns which are relied upon to provide self defence.

The Pardini, Morini's, FWB and the GSP's are based on an older design that is more proven. It's doesn't make them better and it also doesn't make them obsolete.

I sure with time the newer pistols will be proven and excepted as more use them and lets face it as the old guard dies off.

I think in time you will see the MG2's and SSP become successful especially in RF. Thats just my prediction.

Remember all new guns have growing pains and face a reluctance by some to adopt them or even try them, the 1911 went through the same thing in it's early days, I'd have to say its been pretty successful.

I agree that the SSP and MG2 are newer designs than the Pardini and Morini. However these two were modified and improved over time.

Now the question is, what is the real benefit of this new design, does it make you have better scores ? I have no answer to this question yet.

Note also that the new design, assuming it brings a real benefit, is aimed at RF shooting, not that much for sport or standard.

Last point, improving slightly the scores would be nice but the first key point for RF, sport or standard pistol is reliability of shooting because too many malfunctions will disqualify the shooter and winning a couple of points at the expense of risks of malfunction is useless. I would definitely prefer a proven reliable pistol with sligthly more recoil and barrel jump than a less reliable/unproven reliability with less recoil and less barrel jump.

Richard H wrote:....The only extra parts on a SSP are to do with the damping system........

These drawings show that the Walther uses more parts than the Pardini to get the same job done. With the SSP, to their credit Walther attempted to make a pistol to suit standard and rapid requirements while offering ergonomic flexibility, but the result was a bodge of intricate parts. Even with CAD and CNC, in engineering the K.I.S.S. principle [Keep It Simple Stupid] still wins.


Pardini SP



Walther SSP

zoned wrote:
These drawings show that the Walther uses more parts than the Pardini to get the same job done. With the SSP, to their credit Walther attempted to make a pistol to suit standard and rapid requirements while offering ergonomic flexibility, but the result was a bodge of intricate parts. Even with CAD and CNC, in engineering the K.I.S.S. principle [Keep It Simple Stupid] still wins.

A zip gun uses about three parts to get the same job done part count doesn't mean anything. Yes I guess we should still use washing tubs and drive Model T's as they have fewer parts.

I get your point you don't like them that's fine to each there own, I don't agree with your reasoning because it is simply flawed. Using your logic we'd have nothing new and everyone would make the same thing, seems pretty boring to me. Now if you can actually point to parts that actually are failing you might have something.

The original question asked

" But with the SSP am I inviting problems".

As the owner of one for over two years I would say definitetly not. My only real issue was the rear sight coming loose during a match which we laughed at and moved on. I also think changing to a Rink grip is well worth the investment for two reasons: the first is its more comfortable rake, and secondly but more importantly is the provision of adjusting screws which return the grip to the same place after you have removed it for cleaning purposes. The factory grip requires realignment when refitting.
If I had a wish list for the SSP I would ask that the magazine release button be redesigned so it didn't have to be removed to remove the grip, and the slide release buttons were placed more forward on the slide grips so that they didn't foul yours fingers when you let the slide slam home. I wish the rear sight would open a bit wider as well.

Richard H wrote:... I don't agree with your reasoning because it is simply flawed. Using your logic we'd have nothing new and everyone would make the same thing, seems pretty boring to me. Now if you can actually point to parts that actually are failing you might have something.

My reasoning is that I opt not to pay $2K for something poorly made. "New" does not guarantee "better", it is just a different approach at the same task by another company hoping to make a profit. Time will uncover the weak points of the SSP and then you'll know if you've been screwed, or not. The SSP has been available for a while, and even discounted, but they still aren't seen much around my corner of the planet. New Pardini SP's appear all the time, though. That might be a message.

zoned wrote:

Richard H wrote:... I don't agree with your reasoning because it is simply flawed. Using your logic we'd have nothing new and everyone would make the same thing, seems pretty boring to me. Now if you can actually point to parts that actually are failing you might have something.

My reasoning is that I opt not to pay $2K for something poorly made. "New" does not guarantee "better", it is just a different approach at the same task by another company hoping to make a profit. Time will uncover the weak points of the SSP and then you'll know if you've been screwed, or not. The SSP has been available for a while, and even discounted, but they still aren't seen much around my corner of the planet. New Pardini SP's appear all the time, though. That might be a message.

It's already been around for about four years, there were a few issues initially like there is with every new gun.

I've had one now for about 8 months and have put about 15000 to 20000 rnds through it with two failures to eject. I give it a good cleaning about every 5000 rnds, takes maybe 10minutes max that includes get my cleaning gear out, and I'm not in a hurry takes about 1 minute to stripe it down to the main components. In between just a quick pull through.

Have you even owned one? or at least used one?

I've talked to Sven Martini the head of their sports service department he hasn't seen any real problems with them.

Last World Cup I was at there were a few more starting to shoot them so, personally I'm really not worried about it.

The Pardini is a nice pistol lots of them around.

Also a lot of times what you see locally is based on availability, Pardini has pretty good distribution in the US. In Canada Walther has always had very good distribution and service one reason there are so many GSP's here too.

I still have a Walther FP too that works great, all you have to do is not tighten the screw on the battery compartment like it's holding up 5000lbs. The screw was a little too long and if you over tightened it it pushed on one of the components on the board and would crack it.

Well if my Walther SSP turns out to be a dog I guess I'll just have to get an MG2, I'm sure you really like the MG2.

If they are charging you guys $2K you're getting ripped off too, I only paid $1350 for mine.

Richard H wrote:...Have you even owned one? or at least used one?

Yes, I've used one and had it apart. Therefore the reason why I think it appears to be made by Mattel.

Richard H wrote:.. I still Have a Walther FP too that works great....

I've read your posts. That turkey's sour reputation would be difficult to defend. If/when you need them, there are circuit diagrams and layout info in Files at the FP forum...
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Free_Pistol

Richard H wrote:...If they are charging you guys $2K you're getting ripped off too, I only paid $1350 for mine.

Are they currently $1350?!
$2K at Champ's Choice http://tinyurl.com/22poz6c . A bit more at Earl's http://tinyurl.com/24x9fk7 . Buds has also had them for $2K, but now says "unavailable" http://tinyurl.com/bktrmn

$1846 will buy nirvana http://tinyurl.com/24zy4q2

Yes an electronics engineer friend of mine has actually made new circuit boards for the Walther FP. You really can't repair much on the old board as they were all encased in epoxy.

Just confirmed the price on my Visa statement it was $2100 with a $500 case of ammo and the 14% sales tax so it was about $1300. (that was the basic pistol not the one with the extra sight and the giant suitcase and other stuff that add around $500 or so to the price.)

That's pretty cheap !

In Europe it is much more expensive, it is sold at almost 1700Euro in Germany (this is the normal package, not the luxury package with the big case that seems not available anymore).

jipe remember europe has more vat so remove that ~20% and you get close to the 1350 mark plus some years ago 1 dollar was 1 euro. here in greece when i asked the dealer walther had on their site about ssp they gave me a price of 2200 euros (and that was before we had our vat raised to 23%).