TargetTalk

http://www.switched.com/2010/08/27/pent ... 1%7C166631

Pentathletes Will Fire Laser Guns During 2012 Olympics in London
by Caleb Johnson on August 27, 2010 at 07:25 AM

What an absolute shame. Lasers are supposed to be used for training aids, not actual shooting. As for cost? Air and pellets are extremely cheap, as a tin of finale match or R-10 runs about 10 to 12 dollars, while a brick of tenex runs upwards of 180 dollars. Whats next, are we as rifle shooters (and pistol shooters as well) going to have to compete with systems such as Scatt or Noptel or Rika? I forget how cheap they are. And I wonder how accurate of a system these lasers will be? Or maybe the mental impact the athletes will have when they no longer are allowed to actually shoot. Might as well turn it into a video game. I forget how many shooters have a violent impulse to turn on the crowd and shoot them with a single loader firearm. Shooting is just so dangerous, wonder how many injuries have happened compared to the safety of running, swimming, cycling, ect. One more victory to the anti gun morons in England. Glad I live in the U.S, but I'm sure this great idea will pass overseas to the United States.

Short answer is probably yes eventually. Its not about saving money on pellets. Its not about shooting being dangerous either. Shooting is not dangerous because we spend lots of money in the construction and placement of shooting venues, that is what they are trying to get away from.

Hi, all: I predicted at least 15 years ago to all my friends, etc, that it would not be too long until all shooting events, other than shotgun, would be done with air guns. For the same reason as noted, that it just costs too much to have to build new range facilities every time. Plus, with using air guns, the shooting events could be held closer to the center of activites for the Games and perhaps generate more spectators. Just my idea, but it seems to be getting closer to reality all the time. Don in Oregon.

Couldn't agree with you more Don, but technology is taking it one step further now they can use lasers and shoot in just about any venue.

Personally I don't like it but I can see the attraction for games organizers.

This will be the future, the only other option is leaving the multi-sports games completely.

+1 to ZD.
What is so wrong with shooting pellets or bullets? In my opinion, when you start to take away the actual projectile, you will lose a lot of the enjoyment. For me, there is little more satisfying than punching holes in paper, or shooting a reactionary target.

It's a crock...but if you've been following this, the laser-toy is having serious problems. It might be adequate for hit/miss scoring like they are trying to use for Modern Penthalon, but it's not up to the standard of precision of a real projectile.

Mike I wouldn't count on it not working forever.

In round numbers a pellet is 4.5mm in diameter and about 7 mm long depending on make and design. Let's assume that a pellet travels at 150 meters/sec. So the time it takes the pellet to pass through the target paper is

0.007/150 sec = 5E-05 sec (round numbers). That's 5/100,000 of a sec. The pulse must not last longer than that length of time, or the shooter might well move it into a smear, therefore giving an impossible to score shot.

I chose to think about it this way because I've never seen a pellet hole that was seriously elliptical due to the shooter's hand slewing.

Now for those who shoot digital cameras, that time is far shorter than the exposure time of your average digicam, and the scoring sensor will be technically like a digital camera's. It's going to have to be a very bright light.

Are our pentathelete colleagues worried about the laser blinding somebody? And, of course, the spot size on the sensor must be exactly a circle 4.5mm in diameter with a very sharp cutoff on the edges if they want anybody to have confidence that tenths of a ring can be scored.

Well, it's their sport, and at this point, welcome to it. Just don't try to get ISSF to adopt such foolishness for AP or any other discipline.

ZD wrote:One more victory to the anti gun morons in England. Glad I live in the U.S, but I'm sure this great idea will pass overseas to the United States.

Can I suggest you do a little research before making such stupid statements.

This decision has absolutely nothing to do with England or the 2012 Olympics.

It is a decision taken by Union International de Pentathlon Moderne (UIPM), Modern Pentathlon's international body, which is based in Monaco. If you look you will see that GBR only has one representative on the Executive Board, the Athletes' representative, whereas the USA has two. A similar ratio runs throughout the rest of the organisation.

peterz wrote:Are our pentathelete colleagues worried about the laser blinding somebody? And, of course, the spot size on the sensor must be exactly a circle 4.5mm in diameter with a very sharp cutoff on the edges if they want anybody to have confidence that tenths of a ring can be scored.

Well, it's their sport, and at this point, welcome to it. Just don't try to get ISSF to adopt such foolishness for AP or any other discipline.

The Pentathletes aren't worried about decimal scoring; they use hit/miss.

Has anybody got any indication, other than wild scare-mongering, that the ISSF would contemplate using laser technology in competitions?

David Levene wrote:

peterz wrote:Are our pentathelete colleagues worried about the laser blinding somebody? And, of course, the spot size on the sensor must be exactly a circle 4.5mm in diameter with a very sharp cutoff on the edges if they want anybody to have confidence that tenths of a ring can be scored.

Well, it's their sport, and at this point, welcome to it. Just don't try to get ISSF to adopt such foolishness for AP or any other discipline.

The Pentathletes aren't worried about decimal scoring; they use hit/miss.

Has anybody got any indication, other than wild scare-mongering, that the ISSF would contemplate using laser technology in competitions?

ISSF GA Lahti included a demonstration of a Biathlon using Air Rifles converted to laser

LahtiGA wrote:

David Levene wrote:Has anybody got any indication, other than wild scare-mongering, that the ISSF would contemplate using laser technology in competitions?

ISSF GA Lahti included a demonstration of a Biathlon using Air Rifles converted to laser

When was the ISSF General Assembly last held in Lahti? 2002?

David I think the vast majority is speculation, but it is at least based on past ISSF actions, look at Running Boar/Target. First they removed the pig, then remove cartridge ammo and use air rifles, then lets dump it. Many feel the same move is a foot for rapid fire.

Like I said I disagree with it but I sure can see how it would make life much easier for the organizers of the major multi-sport games (Olympics, Pan Am Games, Commonwealth games ect).

Its nice to see actual reaction, because like many things a if you wait till it's done it will be too late.

Richard H wrote:David I think the vast majority is speculation, but it is at least based on past ISSF actions, look at Running Boar/Target. First they removed the pig, then remove cartridge ammo and use air rifles, then lets dump it.

The ISSF have not removed the pig, or cartridge ammo and they have certainly not dumped it. The full compliment of 12 matches were shot at the World Championships in Munich.

The IOC decided that shooting had to lose events from the Olympics and Running Target was one of those that was dropped after 2004.

Richard H wrote:...but it is at least based on past ISSF actions, look at Running Boar/Target. First they removed the pig, then remove cartridge ammo and use air rifles, then lets dump it...

50m RT http://www.issf-sports.org/calendar/cha ... shipid=909 still has the pig target and cartrige ammo: I think you will find it was the IOC that took RT out of the Olympics rather than the ISSF
edit (does David never sleep? He got in first...)

Yes ey do like it was the IOC that bastardized it then cut it loose. The ISSF just supported the bastardization of it which is the discussion which is taking place here. So when the IOC says we want lasers I really don't expect the ISSF to say anything but "you bet". Its not like they have any other options and it might buy the sport one our two more Olympics.

Richard H wrote:The ISSF just supported the bastardization of it which is the discussion which is taking place here.

It might be the discussion that you were having, but I think you were on your own.

I was just pointing out that your claims that the ISSF removed the pig target, then removed cartridge ammunition then dumped RT were all wrong.

Whether the ISSF supported the IOC's decisions on which events to include in the Olympics is another matter. Unless you have some evidence then I would suggest that we would be relying on guesswork; hardly conducive to a sensible discussion.

I agreed with you David my original statement was incorrect, so you can dance a little jig or make a little note.

David are you unaware the the IOC actually works with the ISSF and the international governing bodies of all the sports, or do you just want to be obtuse and pick fights with me. If thats the case fine just let me know so I can participate in the appropriate activity.


Where are the clothing rules, blinder rules, rifle pants and walking rules coming from, if they aren't coming from the IOC through the ISSF considering that is the justification that the ISSF gives themselves.

I'll spell out what I wrote for you, you seem to want to play daft.

The IOC doesn't like the pig so they tell the ISSF if you want to keep it in the Olympics you drop the pig, guess what the pig is dropped, the IOC says make it an air event if you want to keep it in the Olympics, guess what happens they turn it into 10m Running Target, the the IOC says no one does this sport or watches it we are dropping it.

Whoever is responsible, RT is gone from the Olympics, & not likely to come back (altho' it might be amusing if they went to lasers, but they would have to introduce a few millisec lock time to simulate the speed of a pellet compared to a photon; otherwise you wouldn't have to lead the target).

Nevertheless, the ISSF has kept it in the World Championships, so presumably somebody still participates. And presumably the ISSF doesn't want to become the ILSF.

Whatever a modern pentathalon will be with laser pointers, you cannot call that event "shooting". Laser tag, maybe. I would like to think that the ISSF will fight to keep airgun and firearm events in the Olympics, but I reckon they may not fight hard, or might lose even if they do fight hard. If it comes to pass that the IOC says "lasers; only lasers," for whatever political reason, I hope the ISSF will say "thanks, but no thanks" and opt to leave the Olympics, I mean the OlympiX.

A thought: it might actually be harder to hit a target at 1000m with a laser than with a bullet. You can see the wind, but thermal turbulence is on a shorter time scale and more random than wind changes, and you cannot see the thermals well enough to judge them. Not true at short distances.

So much of the Olympics is toned down, sometimes sublimated, warfare. The dressage events derive from cavalry maneuvers; precision shooting, derives from sniper fire; the Marathon from sending messages overland; and many of the track and field ("athletics" in much of the world) events come from combat training and weaponry (eg. javelin, discus, marathon). Just how far do we go in sanitizing things? I'm glad we don't use pictures of real people as targets for the large bore/long range events, but would not want to see us get away from real bullets. I guess synchronized swimming does not derive from any form of warfare.