2010 4-H Nationals Results

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:29 pm

Does anyone have a link to the results from Texas?
CMP only has the 3-P air event listed (under "other")

Chas10x · Post by **Chas10x** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:54 pm

The 4-H match coordinator for Texas told everyone in attendance that she hoped to have the final results posted on the State 4-H website by the end of the July 5th week:

http://shootingsports.tamu.edu/

She's also neck deep in scheduling the squadding for the 2010 Texas State 4-H Shooting Sports Championships, which occurs during the third week in July, so I suspect she's pretty swamped.

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:03 pm

All they really had to do was give a copy of the results to whoever was with the CMP there and they would be on the CMP site that evening.

They should really be posting to the National SS site....

GCSInc · Post by **GCSInc** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:17 pm

Joel,

I can't help but laugh thinking the 4H would relinquish any control much less something like Results... If they used Orion, then the Air Rifle Results could go straight in....

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:37 am

I'm sure they had an Orion system out there for the 3-P Air match. But that's the match that was posted immediately. That's a 50% EIC match and CMP has always been right on top of that event.

I'm wondering how the results went if they are waiting to post the Final. Seems to me it's hard to do awards w/o the final results.

That said.... every nationals for the last 4 years has had results issues ... mainly because they use the "track meet" scoring and no one seems to really understand it.

4hmatt · Post by **4hmatt** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:54 am

I thought that CMP pulled out of the event....Does anyone have any info on why?

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:12 am

The 3-P event in the Air Rifle Discipline is a Sanctioned 3PARC National Council member (4-H) championship match with 50% of the entrants eligible for EIC ("leg") points.

Since the results were quickly posted, I am assuming that either the CMP or someone else had an ORION system there to score the targets and upload the results.

I know that Sheri Judd is over at NRA now ... anyone know who was there this year doing stats?

4hmatt · Post by **4hmatt** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:22 am

I was not able to go to the event this year but my wife and 2 boys went. They were told CMP left on Thursday morning. Talk was precision equipment was being used in a sporter event. I believe daily scores were not even ready for thursday night ceremony. Not really sure what happened but I believe that is why there is only one event posted.

silentfury214 · Post by **silentfury214** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:36 am

I was competing, and there were no precision rifles used as far as i could tell. they might have that the the Edge rifle that two people were using precision, or they might have thought that the Air Arms rifles with adjustable stocks were illegal (which i think they are). Other than that, all i saw were daisy and air arms.

cmj · Post by **cmj** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:01 pm

Didn't they have an equipment check that would have caught any "illegal" rifles?

4hmatt · Post by **4hmatt** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:23 pm

It could have been the Edge some kids are not used to seeing that. It looks like a precision. I do agree with the adjustable cheek. It clearly states in the equipment rules no adjustable cheeks. If that is not the reason then I would be interested in knowing why CMP left.

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:32 pm

4hmatt wrote:It could have been the Edge some kids are not used to seeing that. It looks like a precision. I do agree with the adjustable cheek. It clearly states in the equipment rules no adjustable cheeks. If that is not the reason then I would be interested in knowing why CMP left.

A guess would be the Daisy Open in Rogers. Check-in and Training was the 4th.

4hmatt wrote: ... They were told CMP left on Thursday morning. Talk was precision equipment was being used in a sporter event. I believe daily scores were not even ready for thursday night ceremony. Not really sure what happened but I believe that is why there is only one event posted.

The 3-P Air event was on Wed, so CMP probably ran that event & boogied.
I would have thought that since Texas is the big proponent of the "track meet" scoring, they at least would have it figured out. (Can you tell I am absolutely against the track meet scoring? I have had discussions with Dr. Howard and it's like the salt in the ocean ... it's always gonna be there. We agreed to disagree)
So for 5 years in a row now results are not accurate at awards time.

silentfury214 wrote:... they might have that the the Edge rifle that two people were using precision, or they might have thought that the Air Arms rifles with adjustable stocks were illegal (which i think they are). Other than that, all i saw were daisy and air arms.

Last year there was a team with Air Arms MPRs in the NRA sporter configuration that got past inspection. (our state team coach has photos). From my perspective there was probably no advantage there, if they got thru this year too, no surprise.

===============
While I get really frustrated with 4-H, it is the best umbrella organization for the kids here in NM, so while I grump, at the same time, I'm thankful. It's an organization that is resistant to change, and unless you have (as I feel we do in NM) extraordinarily open minded people in the leadership positions at the land grant university level you're probably not going to get anywhere.

4hmatt · Post by **4hmatt** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:44 pm

That all makes sense thanks for clearing that up. I have noticed you are not crazy about the "track meet" scoring. I also agree 4H is a good organization in general.

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:32 pm

4hmatt wrote:That all makes sense thanks for clearing that up. I have noticed you are not crazy about the "track meet" scoring. I also agree 4H is a good organization in general.

I have a modified 4-H motto for track meet scoring, "Make the Best Just like the Rest".

Seriously, I have an agreement with the club we shoot our smallbore with. I could easily take the airgun program over to it without a loss of any time or effort for our practices.... The reason I stay with 4-H are the younger kids ... it's hard to make contact with the 8-12 year olds in a regular shooting club ... most of the mom's & dads come out to sight in their deer rifles, plink with their pistols, or shoot combat pistol type events.
With 4-H we can get to the young ones directly, and after they get involved, then get their parents involved. When I get frustrated with the system, all it takes is one practice with the kids to reset my attitude.

blg · Post by **blg** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:35 pm

Wow I thought I was the only one who disagreed with Dr. Howard. I have never been to Nationals, but if they run it like they run our State match, then I don't think I want to go.

One question what is the track meet scoring?

Chas10x · Post by **Chas10x** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:57 am

The 2010 National results are now posted on the front page of the Texas 4-H Shooting Sports website:

http://shootingsports.tamu.edu/

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:47 am

Anyone who was there ....What's up with the Air rifle results?
Did they only shoot one prone target???

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:03 pm

blg wrote:One question what is the track meet scoring?

Each individual and each team is assigned placement point value after daily scores are recorded, tie breaks are made, and final ranking for the day is determined. Placement points from each daily event are totaled for each team and individual to determine the overall awards/ranking. Actual point value of each placement at the National Invitational is determined by the discipline/event with the highest number of registrants. Example: if Air Rifle has the greatest number of individuals (68) and teams (21), placing points for individuals in all events will be 1st-68; 2nd- 67; 3rd– 66; 4th- 65; etc. Placing points for teams would begin with 21 for first, 20 for 2nd, 19 for 3rd, etc.

I prefer the percentage basis where each event is tallied as a percentage of the total possible points in that event ... i.e. a 550 out of 600 score is a 91.66% and then all these percentages are added for the discipline. This allows a shooter that really excels in one or two events to hold the lead due to their efforts. (Make the best better)

I feel that the track meet formula, which compresses any leads a shooter may have gained in an event to only 1 point is an incentive for mediocrity across the board. (Make the Best like the Rest) Again ... that's my $0.02.

txjm · Post by **txjm** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:34 pm

Thanks for that explaination. We are headed to state soon. It seems like that is something that is important to know when deciding on iron sights or scoped classes that are part of overall awards. It seems like it is most important to shoot in the largest classes available. One could win a small class with a high score and have less placement points than someone in a large class with a low score. One more thing we are learning as we go.
Thanks
Chip

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:04 pm

txjm wrote:Thanks for that explaination. We are headed to state soon. It seems like that is something that is important to know when deciding on iron sights or scoped classes that are part of overall awards. It seems like it is most important to shoot in the largest classes available. One could win a small class with a high score and have less placement points than someone in a large class with a low score. One more thing we are learning as we go.
Thanks
Chip

Chip ... I'm pretty sure that the numbers in a class are not an issue. I did not include in that explanation (because I'm not sure they follow it at all at Nationals ... they did not in NE) is that the look at the largest discipline (lets say smallbore rifle has the most entrants at 75) and begin all the events placement points at 75 for 1st place. Does that make sense?

It just upsets my sense of propriety when a shooter scores say a 565 taking 1st place, and a shooter firing a 520 taking 2nd place, only having one point difference in the overall standings.

Dr. Howard and I disagree probably because we come from different backgrounds .... he Education, me Engineering.
To him 1st place and 2nd place are almost equivalent awards and both shooters to be congratulated almost evenly.
To me 94% and 86% tells me much about the shooters ability level and possibly a bit about their own investment into the sport.

TargetTalk

2010 4-H Nationals Results

2010 4-H Nationals Results

Choosing to solve a problem?

placement points

Re: placement points