Rule Nazi
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Rule Nazi
I guess you can call me that if you like. I feel that the rules must be followed even in NRA approved matches. I've noticed a few rule violations regarding clothing and equipment at a few matches. Many seem that they don't want to nit pick. I feel that at an approved match, regarding a new shooter, that they should be advised of the rules violation, if minor, at the match. Any further violations of the rules should be cause for a no score (DQ). There are a few experienced shooters who routinely violate the rules where I shoot. There is no excuse for that IMHO. Anyone else want to chime in?
If it is a new shooter you can let them know what is going on in a way not to scare them. Give them a warning and hopefully they will have it fixed by the next time. An experienced shooter should know. I believe it the range officer/ match official's job to enforce the rules. If you have glaringly obvious rules infractions on a regular basis then you should say something to the match official. Now if you are talking about someone who wears thick soled boots vs. tennis shoes, or are nit picking remember it can come back on you 10 fold!
I think the amount of scrutiny should vary depending on the shooter, the event, and the rule in question. At our local matches (approved NRA matches), we'll take any and all comers. If you're new, we will work to get you the most positive experience possible so that you come back again. If you get interested in the sport enough to start working on it, then we'll advise you of what needs to be fixed. In the meantime, we want you to have fun.
Our local matches are really for fun. We do run 2 state championships which are registered matches, during which we stick to the rules. But during the other matches, competition takes a step back. I have shot a number of our 1600 prone matches all kneeling. There have been times where I took 20:20 to finish my target. No one has ever thrown a hissy fit, and even the folks who are new to our matches were fine with giving me the extra 20sec if I was willing to shoot kneeling against their prone. I am using the match to better my abilities, and the handicap of me shooting kneeling gives everyone else a better chance to win (:-P), thus everyone is happy.
Lastly, what rule is broken and how badly. If we have a new shooter who is not using a coat and the sling s slipping down their arm leading to issues with 30degrees, we'll cut them a break. Their wrist is likely killing them already, the lower position really isn't helping them, and they're not at risk of winning anything because they don't care, they're happy to be out there. Now if someone is on the line with a match .223 off a bipod with a scope on iron sight day, obvious issue there.
I understand the rules are in place to answer the question of where to draw the line. But we also need to keep the sport's best interests in mind. Who's going to come back that's DQed from their first match.
Our local matches are really for fun. We do run 2 state championships which are registered matches, during which we stick to the rules. But during the other matches, competition takes a step back. I have shot a number of our 1600 prone matches all kneeling. There have been times where I took 20:20 to finish my target. No one has ever thrown a hissy fit, and even the folks who are new to our matches were fine with giving me the extra 20sec if I was willing to shoot kneeling against their prone. I am using the match to better my abilities, and the handicap of me shooting kneeling gives everyone else a better chance to win (:-P), thus everyone is happy.
Lastly, what rule is broken and how badly. If we have a new shooter who is not using a coat and the sling s slipping down their arm leading to issues with 30degrees, we'll cut them a break. Their wrist is likely killing them already, the lower position really isn't helping them, and they're not at risk of winning anything because they don't care, they're happy to be out there. Now if someone is on the line with a match .223 off a bipod with a scope on iron sight day, obvious issue there.
I understand the rules are in place to answer the question of where to draw the line. But we also need to keep the sport's best interests in mind. Who's going to come back that's DQed from their first match.
98% of the time there is a way to keep a shooter firing and have them within the rules.
i.e Shoes boot .... take em off ... creativity helps.
In matches for placement ... JO quals, sectionals, Cup/EIC matches, championships, or even if the match can set PSA/PSI's I'm in the camp that the rules must be followed .... but if possible with a warning to fix the issue before continuing.
Just because a shooter may place in 45th place, it is still really no reason not to follow the rules .... especially if they were to happen to beat the 46th place person because they were allowed to "fudge" a bit.
I've posted this example/(warning?) before .... in an ISSF style International Air match. The rules used to state that the rifle could not be supported on the LH side of the jacket (RH shooter) .... This allowed a subjective view of what was supported and what was not. Now the rule is "no touch" ... no subjectivity allowed. I fear the grinder may be busy this weekend at Spring Airgun.
At the trials a few years ago, one of my shooters had a brand new jacket that just flat did not pass the thickness test. (even after pounding the heck out of it) We had to get out the "terrorist" knife and remove an inner layer. Only fair to the other shooters that placed below her.
I would much rather have a shooter continue to shoot "Out of competition" than a DQ, or worse achieve a slot that that they did not earn.
Bob Foth always taught in his clinics that the shooter has to look in the mirror every morning and when they view their award, they should be proud of it .... even if they were 45th, not know that it should have gone to someone else.....
i.e Shoes boot .... take em off ... creativity helps.
In matches for placement ... JO quals, sectionals, Cup/EIC matches, championships, or even if the match can set PSA/PSI's I'm in the camp that the rules must be followed .... but if possible with a warning to fix the issue before continuing.
Just because a shooter may place in 45th place, it is still really no reason not to follow the rules .... especially if they were to happen to beat the 46th place person because they were allowed to "fudge" a bit.
I've posted this example/(warning?) before .... in an ISSF style International Air match. The rules used to state that the rifle could not be supported on the LH side of the jacket (RH shooter) .... This allowed a subjective view of what was supported and what was not. Now the rule is "no touch" ... no subjectivity allowed. I fear the grinder may be busy this weekend at Spring Airgun.
At the trials a few years ago, one of my shooters had a brand new jacket that just flat did not pass the thickness test. (even after pounding the heck out of it) We had to get out the "terrorist" knife and remove an inner layer. Only fair to the other shooters that placed below her.
I would much rather have a shooter continue to shoot "Out of competition" than a DQ, or worse achieve a slot that that they did not earn.
Bob Foth always taught in his clinics that the shooter has to look in the mirror every morning and when they view their award, they should be proud of it .... even if they were 45th, not know that it should have gone to someone else.....
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Guest
For the newbies, try to teach them gently, and have correct alternatives available for them (lend them a jacket for the match, etc). For the old buggers that don't or won't change, create a separate category for them. Tell them they can shoot, but the scores only count for an award within their category.
We are too small a sport to turn anyone off. Give the rule followers their just rewards, but have some fun matches for the others.
We are too small a sport to turn anyone off. Give the rule followers their just rewards, but have some fun matches for the others.
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Bubbles
To me it's all about common sense.
We shoot Open/State competitions (that people from around the state etc come for, scores count towards national selection etc).
We have a good bloke who's in to his 70s, regular as clockwork he'll be there Monday nights. Not only running the air pistol shoot, but also helping out in adult education courses etc.
Now our old fella will tend to take the last lane and lean on the wall to help himself out. He's not in the best of condition. This presents no competitive advantage. Plus he's not shooting for the "PTO equivalent" score, he's just participating.
Now based on your "rule nazi" interpretation one of the most useful contributors to our club would be sidelined because of some technicality. Happily, living in reality land, we encourage him to shoot, and marvel if we, at 70+, would have what it takes to put so much positive energy into the shooting sports. And yes, I have had people say something, and I explain what's going on and that they aren't competing score wise with the guy leaning on the wall. Never had a further complaint.
We shoot Open/State competitions (that people from around the state etc come for, scores count towards national selection etc).
We have a good bloke who's in to his 70s, regular as clockwork he'll be there Monday nights. Not only running the air pistol shoot, but also helping out in adult education courses etc.
Now our old fella will tend to take the last lane and lean on the wall to help himself out. He's not in the best of condition. This presents no competitive advantage. Plus he's not shooting for the "PTO equivalent" score, he's just participating.
Now based on your "rule nazi" interpretation one of the most useful contributors to our club would be sidelined because of some technicality. Happily, living in reality land, we encourage him to shoot, and marvel if we, at 70+, would have what it takes to put so much positive energy into the shooting sports. And yes, I have had people say something, and I explain what's going on and that they aren't competing score wise with the guy leaning on the wall. Never had a further complaint.
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Steve Swartz as Guest
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
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- Location: Berwick, PA
When I shot league the rules were pretty vague (if any really existed, other than saftey rules). Our junior club always shot by ISSF rules no matter what so it made no difference to us. Even at regionals and such I never remembered going through a tech inspection.
That being said, I think rules infractions should be mentioned to the person doing the infracting. Most of the time it is probably a newbie or an honest mistake. If it is a case like Bubbles brought up, well then that is a definite let it slide situation!
That being said, I think rules infractions should be mentioned to the person doing the infracting. Most of the time it is probably a newbie or an honest mistake. If it is a case like Bubbles brought up, well then that is a definite let it slide situation!
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wolfpengap
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:21 pm
3am iPhone response
Bubbles,
logical, thoughtfull , compassionate, you made me smile. It is good to see that we are trying to do what is best for the sport vs always the letter of the law. No doubt there are times when old testament response is required but there are those occasions when it is either best for the sport or best for humanity we turn a blind eye.
In the 80s at a state archery match a guy shot using his mouth to release the string- he won the match. The gentlemanin second placeprotested that his use of leather tab and his mouth constitued release aide. The good news is the judges ruled in favor of the man with no arm.
The spirit of the rule was to prevent an unfair advantage. I have always found most shooters to be generous of spirit. we need more shooters to enter the sport and older shooters to stay with us. To that end let's help people get compliant when needed. Ignore errors when it makes compassionate sense, punish the wicked when required. Knowing which course of action to take is what makes us responsible.
Wit that in mind can I shoot two handed be because I really suck shooting one handed -kidding.
Again u made me smile !
logical, thoughtfull , compassionate, you made me smile. It is good to see that we are trying to do what is best for the sport vs always the letter of the law. No doubt there are times when old testament response is required but there are those occasions when it is either best for the sport or best for humanity we turn a blind eye.
In the 80s at a state archery match a guy shot using his mouth to release the string- he won the match. The gentlemanin second placeprotested that his use of leather tab and his mouth constitued release aide. The good news is the judges ruled in favor of the man with no arm.
The spirit of the rule was to prevent an unfair advantage. I have always found most shooters to be generous of spirit. we need more shooters to enter the sport and older shooters to stay with us. To that end let's help people get compliant when needed. Ignore errors when it makes compassionate sense, punish the wicked when required. Knowing which course of action to take is what makes us responsible.
Wit that in mind can I shoot two handed be because I really suck shooting one handed -kidding.
Again u made me smile !
Re: 3am iPhone response
so the guy had only one arm and the guy won and the one guy who had two arms and got beat by a one arm man ..so he went to the judges and told that he dod not play by the rules ..wolfpengap wrote:Bubbles,
logical, thoughtfull , compassionate, you made me smile. It is good to see that we are trying to do what is best for the sport vs always the letter of the law. No doubt there are times when old testament response is required but there are those occasions when it is either best for the sport or best for humanity we turn a blind eye.
In the 80s at a state archery match a guy shot using his mouth to release the string- he won the match. The gentlemanin second placeprotested that his use of leather tab and his mouth constitued release aide. The good news is the judges ruled in favor of the man with no arm.
The spirit of the rule was to prevent an unfair advantage. I have always found most shooters to be generous of spirit. we need more shooters to enter the sport and older shooters to stay with us. To that end let's help people get compliant when needed. Ignore errors when it makes compassionate sense, punish the wicked when required. Knowing which course of action to take is what makes us responsible.
Wit that in mind can I shoot two handed be because I really suck shooting one handed -kidding.
Again u made me smile !
bubbles you make proud that the you allow a older gentlemen a little more lea way when it comes to shooting in a sport that he problay been shooting in before most of the people where born that you and the club was shooting ..thank you for letting him have a little time of fun and spend a night shooting with the club ,,and a big THANK YOU FOR THAT
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Bubbles
I don't have any problem with someone shooting air rifle with an NRA type coat with straps or someone shooting air pistol with boots or high top shoes, for example. I don't have a problem with someone who has a medical condition or because of the ravages of old age uses a support. I welcome them to shoot, but would not consider their score as part of the competition.
I also believe in educating new shooters when they make an inadvertent rule violation. At an monthly local match, I think that they deserve a pass on a first time minor violation. I think that the correction should be made after the match is over and in private, if possible. This prevents undue embarrassment.
Safety violations should not be tolerated. I don't think that totally ignoring minor rule violations of new shooters does them any good in the long run. If they excel at the sport, they will go to bigger matches and they will be confused and upset when they are called on the violation(s).
My biggest problem is with experienced good shooters who ignore the rules when they know better or should know better. Anyone who has been competing for any length of time should know the rules and follow them, especially if they are going to be in the running for awards. These folks deserve a DQ when they violate the rules.
I also believe in educating new shooters when they make an inadvertent rule violation. At an monthly local match, I think that they deserve a pass on a first time minor violation. I think that the correction should be made after the match is over and in private, if possible. This prevents undue embarrassment.
Safety violations should not be tolerated. I don't think that totally ignoring minor rule violations of new shooters does them any good in the long run. If they excel at the sport, they will go to bigger matches and they will be confused and upset when they are called on the violation(s).
My biggest problem is with experienced good shooters who ignore the rules when they know better or should know better. Anyone who has been competing for any length of time should know the rules and follow them, especially if they are going to be in the running for awards. These folks deserve a DQ when they violate the rules.
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WRC
How about before the match, email, mail, or post at your clubhouse, a gentle reminder to EVERYBODY about match and safety rules. That way it doesn't pinpoint anyone in particular, but will have everyone mindful that they all should pay attention.
It's human nature to get complacent: that's why we have yearly safety training at work, and weekly reminders. For some shooters, the new habits are harder to remember: ECI, CBI's etc. (chamber & barrel indicators).
You might also want to have another person such as a club officer be the rule czar, so the message is coming from more people than just you. (removes some of the personality-clash aspect).
It's human nature to get complacent: that's why we have yearly safety training at work, and weekly reminders. For some shooters, the new habits are harder to remember: ECI, CBI's etc. (chamber & barrel indicators).
You might also want to have another person such as a club officer be the rule czar, so the message is coming from more people than just you. (removes some of the personality-clash aspect).
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David Levene
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Experienced range officers will know the most likely rules to be broken. As part of my "welcome & introduction" preamble for a match I will frequently give a gentle reminder about the most common ones.WRC wrote:How about before the match, email, mail, or post at your clubhouse, a gentle reminder to EVERYBODY about match and safety rules. That way it doesn't pinpoint anyone in particular, but will have everyone mindful that they all should pay attention.
I can't comment on most common, but some I've observed have been raising the gun above the back stop, feet forward of the line, putting the gun down (letting go) whilst loaded. I have also seen people release gas in prep time, and just last weekend dry firing during the olympic finals. Oddly enough at the later the guy did so a number of times over the 10 shot finals and was only warned after a number of occurrences. The chief RO and Jury seemed to take a long time deciding what to do.Misny wrote:I like the ideas of sending out e-mails, etc. with reminders about the rules. I also like the idea of the match director reminding everyone about the most commonly violated rules. Would anyone like to comment on the most common rule violations for air pistol and air rifle?
I'm others that run the ranges will have much more experience, I'm just a shooter watching from the back.
Rob.
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David Levene
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- Location: Ruislip, UK
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
I wasn't there but, from what I understand, they couldn't find the penalty they could impose.RobStubbs wrote:Oddly enough at the later the guy did so a number of times over the 10 shot finals and was only warned after a number of occurrences. The chief RO and Jury seemed to take a long time deciding what to do.
Under the First Printing they could only have followed the 6.10.6 procedures.
Under the Second Printing dry firing during the AP & 50m finals has it's own specific penalty in 6.16.4.5.3.7 "Dry Firing after the sighting period is prohibited and will be penalized by deduction of two (2) points for each case from the first Finals shot."
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Raymond Odle