Where does your elbow point while you hold?

[Oz]

While researching my elbow issue, I continue to make some interesting discoveries. The cant on my pistol had slowly been rotating more and more, counter clockwise. I eventually maxed out the cant adjustment on my LP10.

In my discussions, I learned that if I want to continue to shoot, I'm going to have to do so with a bent elbow until I can get this healed up. In my tests, I realized that a comfortable NPA with a bend elbow actually undid all the cant I added to my hold! My elbow naturally pointed more towards 4 o'clock rather than 6 o'clock.

The adjustment I did to get the elbow to stay bent while shooting was obviously coming from my shoulder.

As I played with the shoulder rotation and watched the cant change, it was all very comfortable. Much more than I thought it would be. Have I been wrong to assume that everyone shoots with their elbow pointed exactly straight down, 6 O'Clock?

So here's a poll. Left handed shooters will have to mirror their elbow position (if it's anything other than 6 O'Clock of course).

[lastman]

It's an interesting one.
I have always been told that it is best to have you arm straight and have your elbow pointing at 3 oclock. It locks all of the muscles in your arms and shoulders

However due to previous injuries I can't get my elbow round that far without significant discomfort.

[Popeye]

I think your answer may be yes-it may be wrong to assume that most shooters extend with elbow pointing at 6 O'clock. I had picked up that it may be more of a 5 o'clock or 4 O'Clock average.

[DenLilleBayer]

The 3 o'clock elbow is my trademark. I always use that stance, even when doing the AP. Go ahead, try that stance and become a believer. It will up your scores.

[Oz]

Well guys, I am _blown away_ by this early poll revelation.

I took ALL of the adjusted cant out of my grip and started shooting with my shoulder rotated and my elbow in the 4:30 area.

NO pain, the hold seems to be _very_ solid --compared to trying to hold the elbow at 6 O'Clock.

Later, I took a break and loaded up some finals matches on ISSF.TV. I found a finals match where all the participants were wearing only short-sleeve shirts. It appears to me that nearly all the elbows are in the 5:00 O'Clock area.

Yes, I'm happy that I finally figured this out and that I may have found the reason why my elbow has simply been _destroyed_ and that I can shoot full-time again with no pain with a 4:30-5 O'Clock elbow.

But I'm also a bit frustrated... why isn't elbow position/shoulder rotation ever addressed with new shooters? This seems to be a very big deal!

I can't wait to see a few more hits on the poll results to see how it holds up.

Thanks for the input everyone.

Oz

[sbtzc]

No wonder your elbow hurts!

Like the old Vaudeville joke goes;

Doctor: "Does it hurt when you do this?"
Patient: "Yes!"
Doctor: "Then stop doing that!"

Joking aside, we all do stupid things for long periods of time without knowing. It took me a long time to figure out I raised both my arm and shoulder. Took even longer to break the habit.

Lesson learned; shooting should be comfortable. If something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't.

[Isabel1130]

I think the reason that elbow position is not adressed with new shooters is because it is so much a function of your natural physiology. If you go with the instruction to hold you arm out in a "natural" position, that "natural" position is going to be dictated by how your bones and joints are put together. I could not hold my elbow in either a 6 o clock position or a 3 o clock position without seriously rotating my wrist in relationship to the gun. It would put stress on both my shoulder and my wrist. My elbow when I shoot is not locked but neither is it really bent. I do focus on keeping my wrist stiff while not tightening up my hand at the same time. My finger does not feel the trigger as well when I am gripping the gun too hard. I probbaly erred when I answered the poll because being left handed I had to guestimate and then reverse. I suspect I am closer to 7 or seven thrity. For a right handed shooter that would be 5 or 4:30. Isabel

[Steve Swartz as Guest]

In working with shooters, when presenting the material and discussing the lesson on "Establishing the Shooting Platform (stance, grip, lean)" I discuss the individual elements and how to properly experiment with them.

One of the key issues involves the relationship between grip and elbow and how they interact with foot position (resulting in NPA changes).

One exercise used is for the student to, while maintaining proper wobble area and zero cant of the pistol, rotate the elbow around the positions of hte clock.

This will affect the stability and comfort of the grip and will require the shoulder to be rotated (to rotate the humerus).

Try it yourself- get into your normal NPA stance, grip etc and lift the gun. Then rotate your arm while keeping the gun upright and level. Try doing this with more vs. less movement of the shoulder.

Most students are surprised to find 1) the degree of "flexibility" in elbow position that will be possible with acceptable levels of comfort; and 2) how large of an effect the wrist/elbow/shoulder orientation will have on gripping and wrist stability vs. overall wobble area stability.

Check it out . . .

[2650 Plus]

I like Sreves approach to establishing the elbow position for shooting. My own approach was influenced by a Russian free pistol shooter that held his elbow flat as related to the horizon . He had moved the sights to the left side of his pistol and canted the pistol to an extreem angle so that the sights were level with the horizon. I believe he rotated his shoulder as far to the right as he could and then rotated the arm and wrist to achieve the allignement described, [ he shot a 580 in the practice math held just before the competition] I rotate my shoulder to the right and down to minimize the number of muscles involved in suporting the pistol, and this places my elbow in a nearly flat position relative to the target line. I am not recomending this solution but it seems to work fot me. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Steve Swartz as Guest]

As Bill notes, this is another one of those "personal preference" things. At some point (and maybe even ocassionally go back and re-check) the shooter whould at least try a couple of different orientations to determine what will work best for them.

Mine is a pretty conventional 5:00 with no cant orientation, with shoulder rotation fairly neutral. So it's pretty conventional; except for the hyperextension of the interior elbow joint itself (my humerus/radius-ulna angle is beyond "straight" into the "negative" territory).

Some coaches caution against the hyperextension and recommend using muscular tension to keep the joint angle in the positive range.

This is supposed to prevent injury, but I was never able to get any kind of stability with that method.

Then again, I have suffered from pretty extreme joint problems as well. Not so bad once I gave up shooting 45 hardball, and only a single data point, but still . . .

[luftskytter]

Nice to see such issues discussed:
My main shooting activity used to be archery, and when getting started in AP I was quite disappointed to see that these details got very little attention. Archers work a lot with these issues, but all disciplines seem to suffer from a lack of understanding such things.

BTW:
How high are your shoulders, and why?
Do you lower your head for sight alignment, or do you lower the gun's muzzle and keep your head raised?

[2650 Plus]

I adjust my shooting glasses so that with my head perfectly erect with eyes and ears level and with my shooting eye line of vision exactly centered in the optical center of the glass I can see the sights in my hold area with them being in correct allignment. My shoulder is relaxed and in a lowered position to minimize the number of muscles being used to raise and hold the pistol in firing position. I use a strong hard grip,stiffen the muscles in the wrist area and tighten the tricepts to hold my elbow in a locked position. I position my feet approximately shoulder width apart altho I have used a closer foot position at hip width apart whitch I find to be just as steady My rational for the closer foot position is related to where I find my feet when I am relaxed and not concious of foot placement. I think it is possible that the feet should be placed where it is most natural as this may be where the body find it the easiest to maintain most perfect ballance. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[jackh]

I am just trying to find a shoulder position that does not hurt. Not having much luck.

[ssauer2004]

I am a left-handed shooter. My elbow points at the 7 o'clock mark. The five o'clock mark for a right-hander.

[Steve Swartz as Guest]

JackH:

This long distance "coaching" thing is thin gruel at best . . .

but what aspect of the shoulder has the pain?

Have you experimented with the "full range" of shoulder rotation and alignment in your platform (stance) development?

It's a tradeoff between comfort-stability-repeatability in any case, but if a less stable/repeatable position allows you to shoot (relatively) pain free, it might be worth it . . . ?

[luftskytter-]

Shooting style philosophies, which to choose, how to decide?

The position that:

Comes naturally (easy to maintain during stress / fatigue).
Puts least strain on your body(least chance of long term injury).
Is easy to learn.
Is stable and reliable.
Has maximum extreme accuracy potential (if perfectly executed).
Etc.

Decisions/criteria may depend on ambition, short and/or long term.....
Any views?