TargetTalk

I just got this email and thought I would post it here for thoughts. You should probably email Lindsay Brooke with comments and I listed the email address. I have a Steyr LP50 so this sounds interesting:


From: lindsay.brooke@usashooting.org

Hey pistol shooters!

USA Shooting wants to know what you think about a potential new event to the National Championship schedule. We are considering introducing a 10m five shot air pistol event to the 2009 National Championships. The idea is to introduce this event to potential rapid fire shooters. This event would be used as a grassroots discipline and no National Team spots would be awarded. If the event has a signifigent level of participation and interest, we would start sanctioning the event at local clubs.

The rules for this event are listed below. Please read through the details of this proposed event and e-mail us back with your feedback. Would you be interested in competing in the 10m Five Shot Air Pistol event? Do you feel it would help build our pool of rapid fire shooters in the country?

Thank you for taking the time to read through this email, as a valued member of USA Shooting, we are interested in your feedback! Please send your response to Lindsay Brooke at lindsay.brooke@usashooting.org



10m Five Shot Air Pistol (current ISSF rules)

8.20.1 10 m Five Shot Air Pistol

Any caliber 4.5 mm (.177") compressed air or gas pistol may be used.

8.20.1.1 The pistol used in the 10 m Five Shot Air Pistol event must have
a magazine that can be loaded with five (5) pellets.

8.20.2 General

8.20.2.1 Preparation time - Official Training

10 m Air Pistol Five Target Event 3 Minutes
10 m Air Pistol Standard Event 3 Minutes

8.20.2.2 Before each series the shooter must lower his arm. The pistol may be rested on the bench or shooting table. Should this specify 45 degrees?

8.20.2.3 A series is considered as having started from the moment of the command ATTENTION. Every shot fired after that will be counted in the competition.

8.20.2.4 During the Official Training 10 m Air Pistol paper targets must be available for shooters to adjust their sights

8.20.2.5 Before the beginning of each stage, the shooter may fire one (1) sighting series of five (5) shots in ten (10) seconds.

8.20.2.6 All shooting (sighting and competition series) is by command. All shooters in the same Range Section must fire at the same time, but organizers may arrange for more than one Range Section to fire simultaneously under centralized commands.

8.20.3 10 m Air Pistol Five Target Event

The event is 40 competition shots for men/juniors male and 30 competition shots for women/juniors female. The event is divided into series of five (5) shots each in ten (10) seconds. In each series one shot is fired at each of the five (5) Falling Targets in the time limit for the series.

8.20.3.1 When the Range Officer gives the command LOAD, the shooters must prepare themselves for their series within one (1) minute.

8.20.3.2 When one (1) minute has expired, the Range Officer will give the commands:

8.20.3.2.1 Non electronic controlled targets

ATTENTION 3-2-1-START
The timing will be controlled by stop watches or acoustic shot timers. The command START is the signal to fire. A tone will be generated by an acoustic shot timer.
after ten (10) seconds
STOP or a second tone will be generated by an acoustic shot timer. Shot(s) after the command STOP or tone must be counted as zero(es).

8.20.3.2.2 Electronic controlled targets

ATTENTION The red lights must be switched on.
3-2-1-START The command START is the signal to fire.
The red lights are switched off and give the signal to fire.
After ten (10) seconds The red lights are switched on and the targets will be blocked.

8.20.3.3 Scoring

A hit is given for all targets that fall during the ten (10) seconds shooting time. Any hit is scored as one (1) point. Early and late shot(s) will be scored as zero(es). After each series of five (5) shots the fallen targets of each group must be counted, announced to the shooter and recorded in the scorecard.

8.20.4 10 m Air Pistol Standard Event

The event is 40 competition shots for men/juniors male and 30 competition shots for women/juniors female. The event is divided into series of five (5) shots each in ten (10) seconds. In each series five shots are fired on one (1) Stationary Air Pistol target in the time limit for the series. The target used may be either a paper target or an electronic target.

8.20.4.1 When the Range Officer gives the command LOAD, the shooters must prepare themselves for their series within one (1) minute.


8.20.4.2 When one minute has expired, the Range Officer will give the
commands:

ATTENTION 3-2-1-START
The timing will be controlled by stop watches or acoustic shot timers. The command START is the signal to fire. A tone will be generated by an acoustic shot timer.
after ten (10) seconds
STOP or a second tone will be generated by an acoustic shot timer. Shot(s) after the command STOP or tone must be counted as zero(es).

8.20.4.3 Scoring

All shots fired in the 10 seconds shooting time. Early and late shot(s) will be scored as zero(es).

8.20.5 Interruption

If for safety or technical reasons without fault of the shooter.

8.20.5.1 If the elapsed time is more than fifteen (15) minutes, the Jury
must allow one extra sighting series of five (5) shots.

8.20.5.2 In 10 m Air Pistol Five Target Event /10 m Air Pistol Standard Event, the interrupted series must be annulled and repeated. The repeated series must be recorded and credited to the shooter.

8.20.5.3 Any extension of time allowed by the Jury or Range Officers must be marked clearly, stating the reason, on the Register Keeper's score card and on the scoreboard where it is visible clearly to the shooter.

8.20.6 Disturbances

Should a shooter consider that he was disturbed while firing a shot, he must hold his pistol pointing down range and inform immediately the Range Officer or Jury Member by raising his free hand. He must not disturb other shooters.

8.20.6.1 If the claim is considered justified

8.20.6.1.1 The series must be annulled and the shooter may repeat the series.

8.20.6.2 If the claim is considered not justified

8.20.6.2.1 If the shooter has finished his series, the shot or series must be credited to the shooter.

8.20.6.2.2 If the shooter has not finished his series due to the claimed disturbance, the shooter may repeat the series. Scoring and penalties are as follows:

8.20.6.2.3 In the 10 m Air Pistol Five Target Event the shooter may fire the series, but must be penalized by the deduction of one (1) hit from the score of that series.

8.20.6.2.4 In the 10 m Air Pistol Standard Event, the score must be recorded as the total of the five (5) lowest value hits on the targets.

8.20.6.2.4.1 Two (2) points must also be deducted from the score of the repeated series.

8.20.6.2.5 In any repeated series, all five (5) shots must be fired at the target. Any shot(s) not fired or not hitting the target must be scored as zero(es).

8.20.7 Malfunctions

8.20.7.1 If a shot has not been fired due to a malfunction, and if the shooter wishes to claim a malfunction, he must hold his pistol pointing down range, retain his grip, and immediately inform the Range Officer by raising his free hand. He must not disturb other shooters.

8.20.7.1.1 A shooter may try to correct a malfunction and continue the series, but after attempting any correction, he may not claim an allowable malfunction unless a part of the pistol is damaged sufficiently to prevent the pistol from functioning.

8.20.7.2 If a malfunction occurs in the sighting series it must not be registered as a malfunction. The sighting series may be repeated.

8.20.7.3 The number of shots already fired must be recorded and the series may be repeated.

8.20.7.4 Scoring: ALLOWABLE MALFUNCTION


8.20.7.4.1 10 m Air Pistol Five Target Event

In case of an allowable malfunction: the result on each target must be noted. In the re-shoot, a hit will only be credited on those targets hit but not scored as a miss before the malfunction. A target which was hit before the malfunction, but subsequently missed, will be scored as a miss.

8.20.7.4.2 10 m Air Pistol Standard Event

The score must be recorded as the total of the five (5) lowest value hits on the targets. The shooter must fire all five (5) shots at the target in the repeat series. Any shot(s) not fired or not hitting the target in the re-shoot must be recorded as zero(es). (A second target must be provided for the re-shoot.)

8.20.7.5 Scoring: NON - ALLOWABLE MALFUNCTION

8.20.7.5.1 10 m Air Pistol Five Target Event

The score must be recorded as the total of the fallen targets.

8.20.7.5.2 10 m Air Pistol Standard Event

The score must be the total of the fired shots.

8.20.7.6 Repeating a series because of a malfunction must be permitted:
In case of an allowable malfunction: once in the 10 m Air Pistol Five Target Event / 10 m Air Pistol Standard Event.

8.20.8 Incorrect Range Commands 10m Five shot Air Pistol

8.20.8.1 If, because of an incorrect command and/or action by the Range Officer, the shooter must hold his pistol pointing down range and raise his free hand, and immediately after the series report this to the Range Officer or Jury Member.

8.20.8.2 If the claim is considered justified, the shooter must be allowed to fire the series.


8.20.8.3 If the claim is considered not justified, the shooter may fire the series, but must be penalized by the deduction of one (1) hit in the 10 m Air Pistol Five Target Event or two (2) points in the 10 m Air Pistol Standard Event from the score of that series.

8.20.8.4 If the shooter has fired a shot after the incorrect command and/or action, the protest must not be accepted.

8.20.9 Targets

8.20.9.1 10 m Air Pistol Five Target Event


The Diameter of the Black is 59.5 mm with a tolerance + 0.2mm.

The Diameter of the aperture (hole) is 30.0 mm with a tolerance + 0.2mm.

The targets can be used with an electronic timing mechanism with signaling lights and blocked Falling Targets before START and after STOP or the timing may be controlled by stop watches or acoustic shot timers.

8.20.10 Other Specifications
Event Number of sighting shots Targets Scoring Shots, time Prep. time
10 m Air Pistol Five Target Event 1 series of 5 shots in 10 seconds. See above after every 5 shot series Men/Juniors m.
8 five-shot series in 10 sec.
Women/Juniors f.
6 five-shot series in 10 sec. 3 minutes
10 m Air Pistol Standard Event 1 series of 5 shots in 10 seconds. 10 Meter Air Pistol Target after every 5 shot series Men/Juniors m.
8 five-shot series in 10 sec.
Women/Juniors f.
6 five-shot series in 10 sec. 3 minutes



Event /Pistol a) Maximum Weight
b) Trigger Pull Maximum Barrel Length - Sight Radius Other specifications
10 m Air Pistol
Five Target Event
10 m Air Pistol
Standard Event a) 1500 g
b) No Restriction Box Size Only
400 mm
x 200 mm
x 50 mm Magazine loaded with five (5) pellets. Ported barrels and perforated barrel attachments are allowed
Grips: No part of the grip or accessories may encircle the hand. The heel rest must extend at an angle of not less than 90 degrees to the grip. Any upward curvature of the heel and/or thumb rest and/or a downward curvature of the side opposite the thumb is prohibited. The thumb support must allow free upward movement of the thumb. However, curved surfaces on the grips or frame, including the heel and/or thumb rest in the longitudinal direction of the pistol are permitted.
The weighing of the pistol is made with all accessories, including balancing weights and unloaded magazine.
A manufacturing tolerance of the rectangular Measuring Box of 0.0 mm to + 1.0 mm will be permitted.

What a shame that, although they mention that they are using the current ISSF rules, they are not. They are not even the 2005 rules (minor differences).

I commented to Lindsay that a "grassroots" effort should be more grassroots. Here, right off the bat, the event planned is equipment challenged for the average person and club.

jackh wrote:I commented to Lindsay that a "grassroots" effort should be more grassroots. Here, right off the bat, the event planned is equipment challenged for the average person and club.

Am I missing something, other then getting a multi shot air pistol, what are the equipment challenges? If I read the rules you can probably run the whole match with a stop watch if you don't have turning targets or lights.

[quote

Am I missing something, other then getting a multi shot air pistol, what are the equipment challenges? If I read the rules you can probably run the whole match with a stop watch if you don't have turning targets or lights.[/quote]


"five (5) Falling Targets"

Sounds like equipment to me.

At our club some farmer with a welder set could rig up a crude set of 5 targets. I'm sure they would work well and comply with ISSF rules. Ha ha

jackh wrote:At our club some farmer with a welder set could rig up a crude set of 5 targets. I'm sure they would work well and comply with ISSF rules. Ha ha

The really "funny" thing is that the ISSF rules do not specify how much (or little) "oomph" should make the targets fall, or even that it should be consistant within the same set.

Quest1 wrote:If I read the rules you can probably run the whole match with a stop watch if you don't have turning targets or lights.

Under ISSF rules you cannot use turning targets, although we do in the UK.

jackh wrote:[quote

Am I missing something, other then getting a multi shot air pistol, what are the equipment challenges? If I read the rules you can probably run the whole match with a stop watch if you don't have turning targets or lights.
"five (5) Falling Targets"

Sounds like equipment to me.
At our club some farmer with a welder set could rig up a crude set of 5 targets. I'm sure they would work well and comply with ISSF rules. Ha ha

The only ISSF compliant falling targets I am aware of is the RIKA for $1150. The odds of my convincing my club board to buy one is zero.

As I read it, there are two different competitions - One is fired on the standard air pistol target, thus no additional target equipment.

The other has the five falling targets. It also appears that the falling targets have a 59mm black and a 30 mm hole. Making the assumption that you have to "hit the hole" to knock one down (unclear to me, but logical) the black is the same size as the standard bull, and 30 mm is about the size of the nine ring plus a pellet, so you could start (at the grass roots) by lining up five paper targets at the proper separation and just counting the nines or better as hits.

Am I missing something?

Alan

aross007 wrote:The other has the five falling targets. It also appears that the falling targets have a 59mm black and a 30 mm hole. Making the assumption that you have to "hit the hole" to knock one down (unclear to me, but logical) the black is the same size as the standard bull, and 30 mm is about the size of the nine ring plus a pellet, so you could start (at the grass roots) by lining up five paper targets at the proper separation and just counting the nines or better as hits.

The problem with shooting on paper targets is that you remove the biggest attraction, and the biggest difficulty, of the event.

The fact that you can see the targets fall as they are hit, with the resulting cheering, gives it good spectator appeal but at the same time really concentrates the mind. That's why the shooting ranges at the major Biathlon events gather such huge crowds.

Fred Mannis wrote: The only ISSF compliant falling targets I am aware of is the RIKA for $1150. The odds of my convincing my club board to buy one is zero.

$1150 would shoot down many a grassroots effort. The powers that be must have their head in the clouds to think the grassroots is so capable.

My club does have some crude farmer made falling disk setups with a pull cord to flip them back up. Personally I find hitting them at 25 yards with my 208s to be no challenge and very boring. Then there are the beginners who cannot hit them at all and give up very quickly. Really I do not have an answer to what will create interest in shooting precision pistol where there is none to begin with.

I do make a guess that in other countries, where there is more gun control, and the only game in town is club shooting, people do turn out. In other words, our US freedoms to shoot so many types of (more exciting and easier) disciplines has diluted the precision ranks and interest a great deal. Political correctness factors in a lot as well.



Let me tell of a time I was practicing precision shooting with my Marvel/1911 22 pistol. Nearby on the firing line, two individuals brought out bowling pins. At a target change they set them up at 25 yards while i repaired my target. On return I paused to watch the individuals bang away with their 9mm type pistols. They shot like it was a battlefield. Very few bowling pins fell. They paused and asked me if i wanted to try it out. Sure, I said. We reset the pins and I loaded up my 22 conversion pistol. I fired 5 sustained fire shots and had 5 pins down in about 8 seconds. Easy and boring I thought as the two individuals stared in amazement holding their 9mm's. That's what we are up against. Nine mm bang away type guys.

A friend and I each made a falling plate set-up when they came out with the provisional rules back in 2000 (I think). Cost us some time and less than $100.00. It's reset with a string, and we use a TargetTimer buzzer. The range officer uses his judgment as far as late shots go. Works quite well. We have to repaint it now and again, but it was cheap enough to build.

jackh wrote:

Fred Mannis wrote: The only ISSF compliant falling targets I am aware of is the RIKA for $1150. The odds of my convincing my club board to buy one is zero.

$1150 would shoot down many a grassroots effort. The powers that be must have their head in the clouds to think the grassroots is so capable.

.

With respect, no one's suggesting you have to have ISSF compliant targets. It's more than possible to make your own version that is perfectly suitable for any competition you care to run within your club or state etc, it just won't be ISSF compliant - but who cares ?

Rob.

R.M. wrote:A friend and I each made a falling plate set-up when they came out with the provisional rules back in 2000 (I think). Cost us some time and less than $100.00. It's reset with a string, and we use a TargetTimer buzzer. The range officer uses his judgment as far as late shots go. Works quite well. We have to repaint it now and again, but it was cheap enough to build.

Do you have pics or plans?

My understanding is their proposal is about the 5-shot AP Standard Event which is shot on existing stationary, single bull targets.

Stan

David Levene wrote:

aross007 wrote:The other has the five falling targets. It also appears that the falling targets have a 59mm black and a 30 mm hole. Making the assumption that you have to "hit the hole" to knock one down (unclear to me, but logical) the black is the same size as the standard bull, and 30 mm is about the size of the nine ring plus a pellet, so you could start (at the grass roots) by lining up five paper targets at the proper separation and just counting the nines or better as hits.

The problem with shooting on paper targets is that you remove the biggest attraction, and the biggest difficulty, of the event.

The fact that you can see the targets fall as they are hit, with the resulting cheering, gives it good spectator appeal but at the same time really concentrates the mind. That's why the shooting ranges at the major Biathlon events gather such huge crowds.

How does it "concentrate the mind?"

I'm a little torn on this one. I see the need to garner interest in the International Shooting disciplines. But, let's think about this.

Who goes to Nationals?
People with specialized equipment that is expensive. People that have concentrated on a specific skill type (Slow fire or multishot.) People who have scraped enough money to cover match fees, days off of work, and travel expenses. People that have fully immersed themselves in a specific style of shooting.

Of those who go, who shoots Rapid Fire, Standard, and Centerfire? See above, but add pistols and skillsets designed for multishot events.

How many shoot Air and Free?
Also see above, but add 2 single shot pistols and all of the related equipment, and slow fire skillsets.

How many shoot everything?
This is a fairly small number, but there are a few.

Now for the $2000 question-
How many shooters would rush out to by a new 5 shot airpistol, so they could spend more resources (event time, practice time, monetary resources, etc)

It doesn't seem to be the best way to generate interest in rapid fire. As a slowfire shooter, it looks more like a distraction at Nationals.

If I were to get interested in shooting Rapid fire, I'd spend $2000 on a Rapid fire pistol and hit a local 25yd/m and set up 5 targets. Why should I spend $1800 on an airpistol, if I new that I had to set up different targets and train different timings, for an event that doesn't count for anything (other than generating revenue) and is only held once a year.

They used to do a "fun" event at collegiate nationals that was a hybrid rapid fire that used 10, 8, and 6 second strings fired with standard pistols (before standard and rapidfire pistols were the same.) Why not do this at nationals? A lot of shooters have standard pistols and bullseye pistols that can be easily made compliant. It would be fun, cost next to nothing for most shooters in equipment costs, and would not mean the acquisition of extra, specialized equipment for the host, or many clubs for that matter.

puzzled,

cricman

I'll post what I sent USAS...

Lindsay:
As a sometime Rapid Fire shooter, I like the idea of the falling target event. However, I would be inclined to follow the Rapid Fire timing of 8, 6, and 4 seconds.
I would also seriously consider a 3-target version, with 6, 4, and 2 second timings. This would create a target bay that is less than 3 feet across...something a shooter could own for his personal use, portable enough for a competitor to carry with him to matches. Rather like fencing reels and scoring machines. A major tournament will borrow gear from every club within 100 miles. This would ease the issue of provding equipment.

V/R:
Mike McDaniel

I'll add that an AP version of CF might go over well...it requires no other equipment.

I'm going to try posting some photos. These were before I painted it.