TargetTalk

Has anybody tried scoring the decimal values of inner 10s on paper targets for the various events.

The reason I ask, as an indication, is that Sius Ascor shows a "10" for a 10.3 and a "10*" for 10.4 and above. I presume that "10*" means "inner 10", doesn't it?

Yes * = inner ten.

Thanks Richard.

David,
Neal Johnson carries "Nonius" gages for scoring paper targets in tenths. You might contact him if you need a set. They are pretty slick the way they operate. It is easy to quickly score targets using these devices.

As I recall, when I bought mine years ago, they were not very expensive and I believe you can get just the one you want, or you can get the whole set.

Marc

Hey Marc, how's it going?

I think David just wanted to know if the * after a 10 on the Suis, indicates an inner 10 for the new tie breaking rules.

I hope things are well, say hi to Deb for me.

Marc Orvin wrote:David,
Neal Johnson carries "Nonius" gages for scoring paper targets in tenths. You might contact him if you need a set. They are pretty slick the way they operate. It is easy to quickly score targets using these devices.

Thanks Marc. I have got access to nonius gauges and have used them quite a bit in the past.

I was just being lazy; all of my shooting is done on Sius Ascor and I rarely get to score paper targets any more. When I was scoring them the question of whether a shot was an inner 10 did not arise. I was therefore wondering if anyone had already checked.

It just didn't sound right that 10.4 should be an inner 10, shouldn't it be a 10.5. On reflection though there is absolutely no reason why it should be.

David Levene wrote:Has anybody tried scoring the decimal values of inner 10s on paper targets for the various events.

The reason I ask, as an indication, is that Sius Ascor shows a "10" for a 10.3 and a "10*" for 10.4 and above. I presume that "10*" means "inner 10", doesn't it?

Another 'not quite'
EDITED
ignore my baltherings in this post and see my comment to Marcus' post below.

REMAINING BIT
The 'bummer factor' is for Air Pistol when scored with a current issue target reading machine - the Rika machines are the most popular around AUS and do not indicate inners. For other than Air Pistol the Classification Office can identify inners by the decimal value.
I am informed that the next generation of target readers will indicate inners - but I live in hope for an update to the existing machines (and SOON!)


Spencer

I'm sure its just a software issue, so it most likely will be updated in a software release.

Be very catious concerning ISSF Shop nonius guages. Decimal guages offered up to now by ISSF do not (!) correspond to ISSF rules. I have prepared correct nonius decimal guages for Polish referees and I have been shocked. I completely do not understand how it was possible that ISSF accepted this BS as a material to be offered by ISSF Shop. If you are interested in I can post images showing a difference between a correct decimal guage and "the product" of ISSF Shop. To be clear - I do not sell my guages outside Poland, so I have no interest in this. I am just completely curious how it was possible that ISSF has accepted this pseudo-guages and (maybe intentionally) missleaded so many referees in the world.

I bought a complete set from USA Shooting a few years back. Price was good. I have no idea if they still sell them or not. A phone call is all it takes.

Another 'not quite'
* For Air Rifle the inner-10 value coincides with 10.6. A decimal gauge will indicate an inner
* for 50m Rifle the inner-10 value coincides with 10.3. A decimal gauge will indicate an inner

Another not quite!

I will defer to you on pistol but on rifle an inner for air rifle is a 10.2 or better. If the "dot" is gone it is an inner. from Rule 6.3.2.3 When the 10 Ring (dot) has been shot out completely as determined by the use of an Air Pistol OUTWARD scoring gauge. Not some decimal "vernier gauge".

BTW, what have we come to when a rifle target needs a pistol scoring gauge??!! but it is the perfect size to evaluate it.

For 50 meter rifle an inner is actually about a 10.375 (using interpolation). That is to say that some 10.3s are not inners and some 10.3s are inners. Here it is determined on paper by using an INNER plug gauge (5.6 mm) by if it touches the inner ten ring, NOT by using a decimal scoring gauge. That is why when shooting on electronic targets some 10.3s are and some aren't inner tens.

I don't have my EST course book at hand with the tables for scoring but it is pretty easy to calculate by hand.
Marcus

I'd love to know how inner tens were originally conceived. Certainly for AP their is an 'inner' 10 ring, which naively I'd assumed corresponded to being an inner 10. If it is actually not an inner 10 then that smacks of someone messing up the scoring ring designation or the documentation of it.

If the inner ring is not actually an 'inner 10' then change the rules so that it is. It really doesn't matter where the cut off is, as long as it's consistent and scoreable (IMHO).

Rob.

Marcus wrote:BTW, what have we come to when a rifle target needs a pistol scoring gauge??!!

;-)

Marcus wrote:
BTW, what have we come to when a rifle target needs a pistol scoring gauge??!!

Marcus ..... Marcus ..... just think of them as real short rifles..... :-)

Having run a few sanctioned matches and in the process of the JO's, we (NM air rifle shooting folks) are teaching all our scorers the use of the AP outer gauge for scoring inner-tens. As Marcus said .... it just so happened to be the right size and we don't have to wait for someone to machine new plugs for us.

We've had no issues putting another type of plug on the scoring tables
We did rework our Excel spreadsheets to handle X's entered, but that is really no issue either.

Example Formula for the summing cell:

=SUM(D10:M10)+(COUNTIF(D10:M10,"X")*10)

(it will take either a LC or UC "X")

Rob,

I don't think anyone screwed up with the inner tens. The targets that have an inner ten ring (50 meter rifle and pistol and the 10 meter air pistol target) have an arbitrary dimension given for that inner ring. While the current rifle and air pistol targets were designed in 1988 with electronic scoring in mind, in the case of the 50 meter pistol target the dimensions predate electronic scoring by about 75 years.

With the exception of the air rifle target where a 10.2 is exactly an inner ten, all the others have the inner ten at some point between two adjacent "tenths scoring rings."

I did a few more calculations and found the distance that the center of the bullet or pellet needs to be from the center of the target for the "tenths" score and an approximate (or exact minimum distance for the inner ten.

10 meter air rifle
10.0----2.50 mm
10.1----2.25 mm
10.2----2.00 mm exact inner ten (by definition in the rules)
10.3----1.75 mm

10 meter air pistol (Spencer did this already above, but...)
10.3----5.60 mm
10.4----4.80 mm
inner ten----4.75 mm = 10.40625 rings
10.5----4.00 mm

50 meter rifle
10.3----5.60 mm
inner ten----5.30 mm = 10.3375 rings (Note:typo in my posting above)
10.4----4.80 mm

50 meter pistol (25 meter precision)
10.4----16.68 mm
inner ten----15.3 mm = 10.4496 rings (approx)
10.5----13.90 mm

25 meter pistol (rapid fire)
10.4----31.68 mm
inner ten----27.80 mm = 10.4735 rings (approx)
10.5----26.40 mm


So if you are using paper targets you still need to plug the questionable shot hole for the inner ten ring just as if it were any other scoring ring. This could make scoring paper targets longer (especially 25 meter where targets are scored on the frames). The ring is the inner ten, it just doesn't correspond to a fixed tenths score (except for air rifle).

Marcus

Marcus' calculations above made me go back to my spreadsheet and do a bit of checking...

Marcus is correct (and I was wrong!).

The decimal values bit of my spreadsheet have stood the test of time - but formulae for the inner-10 for 10m Air Rifle was iffy - to convert diameters to radii one should only divide by two the one time...
(from memory, somebody suggested that the inner-10s bits would be a good idea and they were typed into the spreadsheet in some foreign hotel following a 'convivial' evening meal with a few other Judges).

Spencer

Marcus wrote:While the current rifle and air pistol targets were designed in 1988 with electronic scoring in mind

The ring sizes on the AP target were reduced in the 1989 rules because it was realised that, if you used the same decimal gauges for the 10 ring as you used for the other rings on the earlier target, you could actually score an 11 (10.10).

I can't find an earlier set of rules but suspect that the dimension of the inner 10 didn't change in line with the other rings.

David Levene wrote: I can't find an earlier set of rules but suspect that the dimension of the inner 10 didn't change in line with the other rings.

Yes it did. The post 1989 inner is clearly smaller than the pre 1989 one, and it's by more that the 0.5mm that the other rings reduced by.

j-team wrote:

David Levene wrote: I can't find an earlier set of rules but suspect that the dimension of the inner 10 didn't change in line with the other rings.

Yes it did. The post 1989 inner is clearly smaller than the pre 1989 one, and it's by more that the 0.5mm that the other rings reduced by.

I stand corrected.

This is official data from ISSF Technical Committee that I have recently gotten:

Target
Inner Ten starts ...
At Radius [mm]:

10m Air Rifle (4.5 mm)
at 10.2
≤2.0

10m Air Pistol (4.5 mm)
within 10.4
≤4.75

10m Running Target (4.5 mm)
at 10.5
≤2.5

50m Small Bore Rifle (5.6 mm)
within 10.3
≤5.3

25/50m Precision Pistol Target (5.6 mm)
within 10.4
≤15.3

25m Rapid Fire Pistol Target (5.6 mm)
within 10.4
≤27.8

25m Precision Pistol Target (9.65 mm)
within 10.4
≤17.325

25m Rapid Fire Pistol Target (9.65 mm)
within 10.4
≤29.825

300m Rifle Target (8.00 mm)
within 10.4
≤29.0

Best regards,
Grzegorz