TargetTalk

I have been instructing and coaching college, junior and women shooters for over 30 years. One problem that I have encountered during the initial training and practice is that many people have difficulty in understanding the proper pistol sight alignment / sight picture (SASP) when it is presented to them in words and with simple two dimensional drawings. I have not found a good, high quality photograph of the proper SASP that I can reproduce and present to these new shooters. Does anyone know where I can find such a photo (not a drawing and not a video). I did find a great video at:

http://sdturner.googlepages.com/CleanTa ... romAMU.mpg

but I don't have currently have the ability to show a video at every training session. Any suggestions about fixing this problem would also be appreciated.

All you need is a newer generation iPod and convert the video using iTunes.....

Cheers

David

Proper alignment is slight canting of the alignment sight to the left?

I thought only Hollywood gangster hold pistols that way.

That video is a real eye opener about the alignment canting.

I cant more than the video shows. With the Service Pistol we do not have the luxury of grips whistles and bells to right the gun. We have to go with some gripping technique to naturally align to the eye.

PaulB wrote:I have been instructing and coaching college, junior and women shooters for over 30 years. One problem that I have encountered during the initial training and practice is that many people have difficulty in understanding the proper pistol sight alignment / sight picture (SASP) when it is presented to them in words and with simple two dimensional drawings. I have not found a good, high quality photograph of the proper SASP that I can reproduce and present to these new shooters. Does anyone know where I can find such a photo (not a drawing and not a video). I did find a great video at:

http://sdturner.googlepages.com/CleanTa ... romAMU.mpg

but I don't have currently have the ability to show a video at every training session. Any suggestions about fixing this problem would also be appreciated.

I must admit I never have any problems illustrating this with anyone I've coached, including very young shooters. One thing I do is remove the target element from the discussions pretty early on, and certainly have no bull on any cards they start shooting on. This way they have no choice but to look at the sights. I then transition them on to normal targets and they seem to grasp the concepts pretty quickly.

IMO videos just give them too much information and without very careful instruction and tutoring, they can missunderstand what you're trying to tell them. The maxim 'keep it simple' generally works very well.

Rob.

Must disagree with Rob Stubbs on this. The one thing that the coach can not verify is what the shooter is focussing on/at:
- what the shooter THINKS their eye is focussed on/at aint't necessarily so, and
- what the shooter TELLS THE COACH their eye is focussed on/at aint't necessarily so.

Spencer

I may misunderstand the question, but Competitive Pistol Shooting by ANTAL, LASLO has a great set of pictures on page 19 (second edition).
Vin

That's a great illustration. It also deals with some questions raised in an earlier thread around the relationship between the amount of light between the top of the front sight and the bottom of the bull (sub 6 hold) and the size of the gap on either side of the front sight.

Interesting to note that this picture from the second edition shows a gap to foresight ratio of ~ 1:2:1, while the picture in my first edition shows a ratio ~ 1:4:1 with the horizontal and vertical light bars all being of the same (apparent) width.

that picture is not from the book...
The book shows a lower hold
Sorry,
Vin

The document (PDF) shows the pistol oriented laying on its side (as on a shooting bench), and then rotating in the upright position with its sights aligned.

Hope this helps.
Patrick

Spencer wrote:Must disagree with Rob Stubbs on this. The one thing that the coach can not verify is what the shooter is focussing on/at:
- what the shooter THINKS their eye is focussed on/at aint't necessarily so, and
- what the shooter TELLS THE COACH their eye is focussed on/at aint't necessarily so.

Spencer

I'm not sure exactly what you're disagreeing with ???

By removing the target bull a shooter cannot focus on it and ergo even if they tell the coach that they weren't looking at the bull, you at least know they can't be when it isn't there.

Note I also never said anything about shooters telling their coaches the truth.

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote:...I'm not sure exactly what you're disagreeing with ???
By removing the target bull a shooter cannot focus on it and ergo even if they tell the coach that they weren't looking at the bull, you at least know they can't be when it isn't there...

The shooter could be focussing at some other distance other than the front sight - removing the target aiming mark will not necessarily change that.

RobStubbs wrote:...about shooters telling their coach the truth...

My intent with "what the shooter TELLS THE COACH their eye is focussed on/at aint't necessarily so" was more that if the shooter does not know what they are actually focussing (as opposed to what they think they are focussing at/on) they cannot accurately tell the coach...

Spencer

Spencer wrote: The shooter could be focussing at some other distance other than the front sight - removing the target aiming mark will not necessarily change that.

Such as what exactly ? If there is nothing at the far end what might they be looking at ? I don't disagree that in theory they could be focussing on the lights or something on the wall but I was assuming some degree of cognitive thinking and that given an all white target they'd be looking at (or in front of) that. The proof of the pudding would of course be where the shots landed.

My intent with "what the shooter TELLS THE COACH their eye is focussed on/at aint't necessarily so" was more that if the shooter does not know what they are actually focussing (as opposed to what they think they are focussing at/on) they cannot accurately tell the coach...

And that is precisiely why you remove one of the three elements they could focus on, i.e. the target. Foresight / rearsight isn't anywhere near as dramatic an issue as foresight / target.

Rob.

I'm with Spencer here. I believe a lot of shooters think they are focussed on the front sight and would tell theirn coaches such.
Really they are subconsciously focussed some way out in front in an attempt to get the best of both worlds. The sight picture they see is a slightly fuzzy front sight but the black is then not as indistinct.
I was one of those shooters until the penny dropped. I have had a new shooter in AP point out to me that she knew it was a bad shot because she saw her pellet travel through the air against the white. Once I pointed out that she should not see the pellet if she was foccused on the front sight correctly, her shooting rapidly improved.
It is not just the new shooters either - I have had an experienced shooter comment that he was seeing the sun shine on the .22 projectiles as they were travelling down range.

Its an amazing sight, watching them zip downrange Colin. But damn, I get annoyed when I do notice them.

As the relative movement is quite slight (heading vrtually directly away), I wonder whether the brain commands the eye to instinctively focus something it sees moving in the peripheral vision (fight or flight response)? I only ever notice this occuring in bright sunlight.

Pete

Moving off the original post, range officials often have the opportunity of standing back and watching 'things', including the (apparent) flight of the projectile on occasions.
In the right light conditions the corkscrewing of some projectiles (if that is what we are seeing) can be interesting.

Spencer

Its an amazing sight, watching them zip downrange Colin. But damn, I get annoyed when I do notice them.

Hi Pete,
If you can see them zipping downrange then I guess you must have that expensive toy of yours working.
Given my work/holidays situation and lack of ISSF opens, looks like the state titles in Ballarat is the next time we'll have a chance to catch up.
Good shooting
Colin

Spencer wrote:Moving off the original post, range officials often have the opportunity of standing back and watching 'things', including the (apparent) flight of the projectile on occasions.
In the right light conditions the corkscrewing of some projectiles (if that is what we are seeing) can be interesting.Spencer

Moving a little farther. . . try shooting outdoor prone at 100 yds./meters with a 20x scope in a stong wind. Many times the bullet is visible way high and off to the one side of the ten ring. It always amazed me to watch it arc into the bull from so far from the center. Sometimes it scared me. I didn't think it was going to make it in there. Come to think of it, it didn't make it every time!
Ben

Freepistol wrote: ... It always amazed me to watch it arc into the bull from so far from the center. Sometimes it scared me. I didn't think it was going to make it in there. Come to think of it, it didn't make it every time!
Ben

Get that negative thought out of your head, right now ;) .

Many top shooters, 2600 level have told me that they knew they were focused on the front sight and nothing else. Some where between 2600 and 2650 they came off the firing line with a totally astonding expression and said in amaziment " The front sight was so wide and black that I was amazed and realized that I had never been focused on it until today. The same thing happened to me when I really began to shoot over the 2650 mark. It also happened with the free pistol when I started shooting at near the 560 mark All my top scores occured when the front sight magically grew in size and blackness. The corners of the front sight.were amazingly sharp and easy to center and allign with the flat top of the rear. Scores improved and it was really easy to shoot tens. The 8' and 7's just stoped happening as long as I did my part in delivering the shot. I had told all my coaches that I was focused on the front sight and really believed what I was telling them. But I wasn't !!! Keep trying harder to see every bit of the front sight , especially the very top that you have to level with the top of the rear sight. Good Shooting Bill Horton