Moving from 6'oclock to sub 6 aim point

[edster99]

Anyone have any experiences of changing their aim point from 6 o'clock (on the base of the black) to sub 6, (about 5 ring) and how long it takes to get used to it? I have tried a couple of sessions - its between leagues etc so i have a month to train without scoring pressure - and its proving tricky. I have had some good stuff but also some real rubbish, and my scaredy head says 'go back to what you know'. My analytical head says 'it gives you a number of advantages and its worth going through the pain'. How long do i have to deal with that pain?

Help!!

regards

Ed

[Freepistol]

Ed,
Here's some good advice I received when I did the same thing:

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... w=previous

[SteveT]

Good for you. Stick with it. IMO most shooters would do better with a sub-6 hold.

Move your sights up (obviously) and put a note in your gun box that says "Sub 6" so every time you take the gun out, you are reminded. Lay the sign on the bench when you are shooting as an additional reminder. If your subconscious is really obstinate add a reminder at some point in your shot routine (e.g. just before raising gun think "white below the target").

Don't worry about how far you are below the bull. You will become consistent and it is best to let it happen rather then try and force it.

Then just practice and visualize shooting sub-6 until it becomes natural. Depending how often you practice that could be a few weeks or it could be a few months until it is fully ingrained.

Best of luck,
Steve Turner

[Oz]

After reading a post from someone else, stating that Don Nygord's practice was to use the same amount of white space on the sides, on the top of the sight, I adjusted the sights and gave sub-6 a shot.

I failed. Not to say that I won't try it again at some point, but it was a shocker to see how much this can alter execution. At least for me.

I've been doing a lot of reading in this forum on this topic... there are HOURS worth of reading and this apparently pops up every 6 months. What stuck for me is the need for new muscle memory to be burned which will take time. Maybe an hour/night for a month would be a reasonable test to determine if the new hold is helpful? Like Steve said, it'll probably be vastly different for everyone.

I'll be curious to see how sub-6 treats you and how long it takes to adjust.

[RobStubbs]

In my experience most people pick it up quickly, but then I've not tried retraining older shooters. The difficult part for most people is accepting the concept of an area aiming technique rather than a precise one. Once they overcome that mental obstacle they almost always find it better, in terms of both shot execution and scores.

Rob.

[edster99]

I think thats right that you need to make the commitment to doing it, and I think i'm happy with the area aim idea - sometimes i dont trust as much as i might so i'll work on doing that consistently. I know it is likely to be messy for a while, but I just think 'Tiger Woods'. When i shoot regular 570s, i'll know its worked :)

regards

Ed

[Steve Swartz]

Great discussion all and would like to

1) Empahsize "WHAT PETE SAID" but say it louder (sorry edster)

2) I use the Kruger targets as well- but I also use an "inverse Kruger" that looks like this: A very dark background paper with a white horizontal rectangle. The white rectagle is 10 ring high and front sight width + ten ring wide. If I can hold the aligned sights inside the white area, its a ten ring hold.

[Fred Mannis]

2) I use the Kruger targets as well- but I also use an "inverse Kruger" that looks like this: A very dark background paper with a white horizontal rectangle. The white rectagle is 10 ring high and front sight width + ten ring wide. If I can hold the aligned sights inside the white area, its a ten ring hold.

OMG! Steve are you dong HOLDING exercises??

[Steve Swartz]

No Fred . . . Alignment Exercises . . . and without a "Distraction Bull" at that!

[edster99]

Great discussion all and would like to

1) Empahsize "WHAT PETE SAID" but say it louder (sorry edster)

2) I use the Kruger targets as well- but I also use an "inverse Kruger" that looks like this: A very dark background paper with a white horizontal rectangle. The white rectagle is 10 ring high and front sight width + ten ring wide. If I can hold the aligned sights inside the white area, its a ten ring hold.

Steve - dont apologise this is just what I wanted to explore!

any observations as i go through the process i'll follow up with

regds
Ed

[Mike M.]

Having done this a year ago in AP, I'll say that it takes about a month to get really comfortable. But it does work. My winter project is working up loads for a sub-six hold...for a Remington 1858 revolver.

[edster99]

Well

6 months on I have reached my previous PB again (562) and seem to be shooting more consistently in the 550s (including at open shoots). So has it worked? Only time will tell but its fair to say I have been training rather irregularly up until recently so theres little chance of an informed decision. And I still notice my shots string much more vertically than horizontally. Its a question of how much / when / one concentrates on sights position.

[Spencer]

...And I still notice my shots string much more vertically than horizontally. Its a question of how much / when / one concentrates on sights position.

Once you can make that 'leap of faith' it's a revelation - the vertical stringing may be due to any of a number of factors, but you have a finer area of white to 'aim into' vertically (about 1/6th of the horizontal white).

There is a tendency to try to aim (vertically) at an imagined point on the target, whereas the brain gives up with the horizontal and more readily accepts that an area is good enough - the horizontal bit works but the vertical bit leads you astray with the outcome being the vertical stringing.

Just a thought

Spencer

[2650 Plus]

You recieved advise to write sub six on a note and put the note in the front of your gun box. Us old timers placed a very precise picture f perfectly alligned sights with a grey, fuzzy blob of the size the target would have appeared at the proper distance. In yourt case place the picture of the sights where ever you want to hold and put this pecture in your box where it is the first and last thing you see before you raise the pistol to the firing position. This will fix an image in your mind and maybe in your subconcious that should be very beneficial. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Freepistol]

You recieved advise to write sub six on a note and put the note in the front of your gun box. Us old timers placed a very precise picture f perfectly alligned sights with a grey, fuzzy blob of the size the target would have appeared at the proper distance. In yourt case place the picture of the sights where ever you want to hold and put this pecture in your box where it is the first and last thing you see before you raise the pistol to the firing position. This will fix an image in your mind and maybe in your subconcious that should be very beneficial. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Good idea, Bill! I remember seeing those pictures in the 70s on the bullseye shooting boxes before optics became popular.
Ben

[edster99]

Thaks for the advice... I'll get the picture done, and think about your idea Spencer. I know when I really concentrate on the foresight I lose mental focus on vertical position, and it comes out OK! It's like fighting your mind, with your mind...

[Bobs my baker]

I shot just a hair below bull . My high score 594 (at home) right now I average 582 (at home ) I took a few months off but am now shooting again, which brings me to my question. When I am in full swing (shooting every day) I average 586 , if I switched to sub 6 what is the likelyhood my scores would get better ? I tried to switch once , lasted a week (mental problems ) . I wont shoot another match till nationals so im tempted to try again. To me the bull isnt a distraction but a goal. Im listening to all................... A 6 oclock Shooter. P.S. Im not saying Sub 6 isnt better for most, (if you can do it, DO IT) Im just wondering!!! IF you already shot 580plus (at home) should you even try to switch ?

[David Levene]

IF you already shot 580plus (at home) should you even try to switch ?

As you seem to have identified Bob, there is a difference between shooting at home and shooting with others in a competition. It would be interesting to know what you average in matches.

I am not saying that 6 o'clock shooting can't work, your home scores would obviously disprove that. Whether those high scores are repeatable under different mental and environmental conditions is another question.

Use whatever works for you.

[Oz]

IF you already shot 580plus (at home) should you even try to switch ?

LOL... it depends. If it's 580/1000, yeah, give it a try. If it's 580/600...

While I was listening to the 6 vs sub-six, vs Nygord sub-six arguments I learned that a standard 6 lost favor because it was easy for the black sight to get lost in the bottom of the black target center. -Easy to see if the sight is too low, more difficult to see if the sight is too high.

I would theorize that if your 9's trend high of the 10, it could indicate that the top edge of your sight might float high into the black target center and go a little high. A Nygord six or a sub-six would fix that. I'll be interested to see what you decide to do, if anything and what the results will be.

Oz

[edster99]

Always interesting to hear from people who outshoot the world record, even if it is at home. Does your technique stand up to pressure?