Need some Advice (new to AP)

vjay · Post by **vjay** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:23 pm

Hi guys, new to AP and this forum.

2 months shooting AP and I'am kinda stuck, guess I need some tips ;)

Pls look at my score target (60 shots). Used official ISSF targets at 10mts with my baikal izh46m. I havn't made any modification to my grip.

I only know the basics of AP (internet search) and this time I shot a 462 using rws geko, which is my average score, well maybe a bit more :)

Thanks

j-team · Post by **j-team** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:22 pm

The first thing i would do is to adjust your sights as your group centre is to the left of the target centre. The centre of the group should be the centre of the target regardless of the size of the group.

The group looks reasonably 'round' so there's probably nothing wrong with what you are doing just need to shrink the group size.

Bill Poole · Post by **Bill Poole** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:26 pm

get a good natural point of aim

FOCUS ON THE FRONT SIGHT

nice smoooooooooooooooooooooooth trigger squeeze

dry fire

dry fire

dry fire

FOCUS ON THE FRONT SIGHT

dry fire

dry fire

FOCUS ON THE FRONT SIGHT

do some arm exercises

cut back on sugar and caffiene

dry fire

dry fire

FOCUS ON THE FRONT SIGHT

do some relaxation exercise

warm up before shooting

dry fire

dry fire

FOCUS ON THE FRONT SIGHT

shoot good

Poole

Oz · Post by Oz » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:07 pm

If that grouping was moved over to center it up, it would appear that your score would go up significantly. Then by doing everything Bill outlined, the group is sure to get smaller and scores will continue to increase.

Freepistol · Post by **Freepistol** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:27 pm

vjay, are you calling your shots?

vjay · Post by **vjay** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:28 pm

Freepistol wrote:vjay, are you calling your shots?

What do you mean by calling my shots, sorry new term for me :(

You mean I know whenever I hit a 10' as soon as my gun goes off?
If so, i guess I can call some of my shots.

Thanks for all the help guys :)

Bill Poole · Post by **Bill Poole** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:13 am

"calling one's shot" means to watch the front sight and sight picture so intently that at the instant it goes click, pop or bang (depending on whether you are dry firing shooting air or firearm) you remember the exact sight picture and relationship between the (blurry) target and the (in focus) front sight and can estimate at first if you shot was left or right or up or down and whether it was close to center or far out... after practice shooters will even estimate to the scoring ring: that one was a loose 10 at 12:00, that one was a tight nine at 7:00 etc.

so when all those shots went out to the right, did you "see" the sight out at the right or to the right within the rear sight at the instant of the pop?

vjay? is that Vijay? kya aap hindustani hain?

where are you located at?

Poole

Freepistol · Post by **Freepistol** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:30 am

vjay wrote:What do you mean by calling my shots, sorry new term for me :(

You mean I know whenever I hit a 10' as soon as my gun goes off?
If so, i guess I can call some of my shots.

Thanks for all the help guys :)

What Bill said.

If the holes aren't where you called them, and you have sighted your pistol properly, check for common errors here:

http://natqa.uas.se/biomek/ref/bullseye_pistol.pdf

and click on "Error Analysis and Correction"

Also, you can spend a week reading all the good things here:

http://www.pilkguns.com/menu_coaching.shtml

and several weeks reading the forum archives.
I've found tips and techniques that I would never have thought of if I would have shot for 50 years.
Ben

Ed Hall · Post by **Ed Hall** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:20 am

I'm sorry guys, but I must provide a different view from some of those expressed above. Do remember, this is my opinion and you are all free to travel your own paths.

First, the relationship of the front sight to rear sight will tell you more about the shot placement than where they are located on the bull. This is due to the difference between angular error (at the gun) and parallel error (against the target). For more information you can check out chapter 2 of the USAMU guide.

Second, studying errors will help you learn all about errors. Throw away thoughts about errors. Although this method can be used (and has been for years), it is the long way around. Focus on perfecting the fundamentals and study what makes them go right. Work toward consistency of the application of those things that produce what you seek. If you spend your time searching for errors, you will run short of time to study what works. Your target does not represent any errors. It represents a pattern of performed shots that is fine for where you are. By studying your technique and moving toward consistency in application, you will sidestep the errors that would otherwise distract you. Yes, you can improve your technique, but I would not label it correction, but rather, perfection of your technique.

I would also like to suggest going to the source of the BullseyePistol material referenced previous. The site is much more current than the capture. The site can be found here:

The Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol

You can find the USAMU Guide reference to chapter 2 there as well. Or, you can go directly there:

SIGHT ALIGNMENT Chapter 2: Army Marksmanship Training Guide

As always, all comments, even disagreements, are welcome...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

Freepistol · Post by **Freepistol** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:14 am

Very good, Ed, I was looking for that site about sight alignment and couldn't find it this morning. I'm glad you took time to post it.
Ben

vjay · Post by **vjay** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:32 pm

Thanks for the replys :)

Well, I adjust my sights from a chair a couple of months ago when I started at AP but I just read its not the best way. Seems I need to adjust my sights a bit.

Good links, think I lack of point of focus. I try to focus on my sights but often I end up looking at the bullseye making my sights blurry.
Any tip to avoid that?

Thanks
vjay

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:54 pm

vjay wrote:Good links, think I lack of point of focus. I try to focus on my sights but often I end up looking at the bullseye making my sights blurry.
Any tip to avoid that?

1. Are you using a center hold or sub 6? If you are using a center hold, try the sub 6.

2. See Bill Poole's comments above. At least 15 minutes per day dry fire.

vjay · Post by **vjay** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:27 pm

Fred Mannis wrote:
vjay wrote:Good links, think I lack of point of focus. I try to focus on my sights but often I end up looking at the bullseye making my sights blurry.
Any tip to avoid that?
1. Are you using a center hold or sub 6? If you are using a center hold, try the sub 6.

2. See Bill Poole's comments above. At least 15 minutes per day dry fire.

Thanks fred, I'am using 6' o clock, I'll try using sub 6. I don't have shooting glasses right now, only my prescription glasses.

cheers'

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:54 am

Vjay,

One exercise you could try is to turn the target around and shoot at the back. Do this a lot...I know it is not very fun...but his is one method to help train your eyes to learn some muscle memory for your eyes so they become used to focusing on just the front sight. Another method to help this is optics...look up Dr. Wong and at www.bullseyepistol.com.

I have been at this for 20 yrs and still have trouble just focusing on the front sight and not allowing my focus changing from shot to shot or even during the same shot. It will be one of those things you will always have to work on.

Thus....FOCUS on your FRONT sight. It takes work every shot.

MichaelB · Post by **MichaelB** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:04 am

Chris wrote:I have been at this for 20 yrs and still have trouble just focusing on the front sight and not allowing my focus changing from shot to shot or even during the same shot. It will be one of those things you will always have to work on.

I had some coaching yesterday and at one point the coach asked me why I was looking at the target as I lowered my pistol to the bench. I stared at him rather dumbfounded, because of course I had no idea: I was sure I was watching my front sight, but I clearly wasn't. I've taken myself back to dry-firing against a blank wall to grind the obvious in a little bit further... watch sight, watch sight.

Why does this all LOOK so easy?

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:32 am

One advantage of aging (I knew there had to be at least ONE!) is that your eyes lose their 'accommodation' - with the shooting script for pistol, i.e. at the front sight distance, you CAN NOT focus on the target!

Spencer

Ed Hall · Post by **Ed Hall** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:11 am

Some random notes:

I have a more current and complete (even has pictures) version of Dr. Wong's articles at:

Dr. Norman Wong Articles as posted to the Bullseye List

When adding a bull to your dry fire, use a small one and move close, so your eyes are near-focused even if you do look at the target.

You could add a mark or design to the surface of your front sight. I've often thought of engraving something detailed I'd really like to look at, but have settled for basic designs. I've used white diamonds in the past and recently modified my 208s to use fiber optics.

A friend has mounted a small light on his Free Pistol to "brighten" up the front sight.

During your shot process, you could build in bringing your focus back to the rear sight or even further, before moving to the front sight for the shot. Brian Zins has mentioned bringing his focus to the firing pin on the 1911 before moving to the front sight.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:12 am

Spencer wrote:One advantage of aging (I knew there had to be at least ONE!) is that your eyes lose their 'accommodation' - with the shooting script for pistol, i.e. at the front sight distance, you CAN NOT focus on the target!

Spencer

True, but your attention can, and will, wander there.

Freepistol · Post by **Freepistol** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:05 am

Ed Hall wrote:Some random notes:

I have a more current and complete (even has pictures) version of Dr. Wong's articles at:

Dr. Norman Wong Articles as posted to the Bullseye List

When adding a bull to your dry fire, use a small one and move close, so your eyes are near-focused even if you do look at the target.

You could add a mark or design to the surface of your front sight. I've often thought of engraving something detailed I'd really like to look at, but have settled for basic designs. I've used white diamonds in the past and recently modified my 208s to use fiber optics.

A friend has mounted a small light on his Free Pistol to "brighten" up the front sight.

During your shot process, you could build in bringing your focus back to the rear sight or even further, before moving to the front sight for the shot. Brian Zins has mentioned bringing his focus to the firing pin on the 1911 before moving to the front sight.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

That's really good stuff, Ed. Thanks for the link!
Ben

spacepilot · Post by **spacepilot** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:48 am

Welcom to TargetTalk, vjay. I have been shooting air pistol for about as long as you, and am shooting around 80% in postal matches, as well. Shooters with much more experience have provided excellent advice. At maybe a similar situation as you are, I'm listing some of the things that I plan to work on in the next weeks and months. Hope these will be of help to you. Any comment on my plan is also appreciated.

1. Focus intensely on front sight for every shot; this includes before, during, and after each shot. As others have said, this is by far the most important fundamental element required to produce good shots. Presently, I'm ok at focusing before the shot, and not so good at during and after the shot (follow-through). I believe good follow-through is essential to consistently producing satisfactory shots. This video (.rm format) from Target Shooting Canada was enough to convince me that my focus has to stay on the front sight and sight alignment during and after each shot. Take a look at the beginning of the video, notice how the IZH shooter (:08-:12 in the video) started to lower the pistol almost before the recoil comes in. Unless this shooter can make this lowering of pistol absolutely consistent and absolutely in sync with the break of the shot, he can not expect consistent results from his technique. Focusing on the front sight during and after the shot will solve this problem and make the technique more consistent. To achieve such focus, I plan to (a) dry fire and live fire on blank targets, focusing on the front sight and executing good follow-through; (b) use electric tape to make top 2/3 of the target black for live fire, so that the trajectory of the pellet and the hole in the target will not distract me from executing good follow through; (c) except for sighters, do not use spotting scope when firing at bullseye targets, instead of thinking of the score of each shot, focusing on producing technically satisfactory shots.

2. Study triggering technique. I haven't been paying much attention to my triggering technique, but I'm sure some of my wide flyers are due to poor triggering. For this I need to read more and figure out my angle of attack. Bottom line: I plan to find out the technique the enable me to apply smooth positive pressure to the trigger that doesn't interfere with my sight alignment.

3. Practice and refine my shot plan. I have a preliminary shot plan (attached to this post) that I have been using in the last several sessions. I am adding and modifying the plan to make it (a) easier to follow consistently (b) more conducive to technically good shots. Right now, it doesn't provide much details about the process after lowering the pistol into aiming area and before lowering the pistol. After a while, as I am gaining more insight about triggering control, I hope the shot plan will include more directions about these crucial moments. Bottom line: this shot plan will evolve and become the technical guidance that helps me produce good results in practice and something I can absolutely depend on during competitions.

That's about it for now. I believe working on these three things will effectively help me produce good technical shots more consistently. Any comments on my plan is welcome.

Regards,
Nick

Need some Advice (new to AP)

Need some Advice (new to AP)

Re: Need some Advice (new to AP)