HI folks, I am looking for some info prior to buying our ammo.
As stated before, I caoch a HS rifle team. We shoot all prone, 10 bulls in 15 minutes. All inddor 50 ft range. We use Anschutz 1903 standard target rifles.
I currently have Eley Practice, and standard brown ammo, I also have SK Match. These seem to be middle of the road level, and I plan to shoot it up in practice.
I'm looking for good match quality ammo to give us an edge--the good stuff. Does anyone have an opinion based on the 1903?
Thanks
Best Ammo advice
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
It all depends what shoots well in those individual rifles. All prone, at 50 ft indoors, you should see no difference between any acceptable ammo. Don't dismiss Wolf/SK because of its price. The cheap Wolf ammo won the iron sights prone championship at Camp Perry a few years back, and SK has shot some of the tightest groups I've ever seen out of my rifle, up there with Eley EPS and the old Federal Ultra,
At 50 feet we primarily use Wolf Match Target and SK STD+ .... basically the same stuff.
Some of my more advanced shooters will use Eley Target (Yellow box), but it's hard to convince me it's outshooting the Wolf and SK.
What target are you shooting? A-36 or USA-50?
If it's the A-36, I'd stick with the Wolf & SK ..... on the USA-50 .... OK, you may want to go with something that's been QC'd a bit better.
Unless you vice the guns and ammo test it's gonna be hard to tell with the 1903's .... the gun fit and recoil from shooter to shooter will mask any of them telling you which shoots better I'd think
Some of my more advanced shooters will use Eley Target (Yellow box), but it's hard to convince me it's outshooting the Wolf and SK.
What target are you shooting? A-36 or USA-50?
If it's the A-36, I'd stick with the Wolf & SK ..... on the USA-50 .... OK, you may want to go with something that's been QC'd a bit better.
Unless you vice the guns and ammo test it's gonna be hard to tell with the 1903's .... the gun fit and recoil from shooter to shooter will mask any of them telling you which shoots better I'd think
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Dean Peterson
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:18 pm
- Location: San Jose, CA
First off -if you are a new shooter - don't waste a minute testing ammo......
You are far better off spending your time dry firing, or actually shooting, than wasting time testing ammo in a rest or some other device.
The money you will have to invest in a proper rest, the time required to set it up and use it, and the dollars spent buying all of the various lots of all of the various brands will NOT yeald anywhere near the results of spending that same time and money on actual shooting.
Lot testing is done by those who are trying to literally squeeze out the last bit of precision; after ALL other factors contributing to error have been conquered; this takes years of training FIRST!!!
It has it's place, of course, and it makes a difference.... so when you arrive at a point where you are competing at that level - the time and resouces spent on testing MAY make difference.
You will arrive sooner at that place by training than by testing ammo.
Until then pick a moderately priced ammo - something in the $40 to $80/brick range and train with it as much as possible.
When it comes time to shoot in an important event - give yourself a gift and shoot the best ammo you can afford - all of the top line brands are exceptionally good in ALL rifles. IF you perceive a difference using the higher quality ammo, then by all means buy as much of it as you can afford and train with it. It's just that we all have far more to overcome with technique than will ever be overcome by the differences between the various top of the heap brands and lots.
The very small differences found from bench testing all of the very best ammo in the world are just that, small differences........discerable, but small.
For MOST rifles, the differences between say Eley Club and Eley TENEX are far greater than the differences between any two lots of Eley TENEX, or any two other makes of ammo in that class.
You are far better off spending your time dry firing, or actually shooting, than wasting time testing ammo in a rest or some other device.
The money you will have to invest in a proper rest, the time required to set it up and use it, and the dollars spent buying all of the various lots of all of the various brands will NOT yeald anywhere near the results of spending that same time and money on actual shooting.
Lot testing is done by those who are trying to literally squeeze out the last bit of precision; after ALL other factors contributing to error have been conquered; this takes years of training FIRST!!!
It has it's place, of course, and it makes a difference.... so when you arrive at a point where you are competing at that level - the time and resouces spent on testing MAY make difference.
You will arrive sooner at that place by training than by testing ammo.
Until then pick a moderately priced ammo - something in the $40 to $80/brick range and train with it as much as possible.
When it comes time to shoot in an important event - give yourself a gift and shoot the best ammo you can afford - all of the top line brands are exceptionally good in ALL rifles. IF you perceive a difference using the higher quality ammo, then by all means buy as much of it as you can afford and train with it. It's just that we all have far more to overcome with technique than will ever be overcome by the differences between the various top of the heap brands and lots.
The very small differences found from bench testing all of the very best ammo in the world are just that, small differences........discerable, but small.
For MOST rifles, the differences between say Eley Club and Eley TENEX are far greater than the differences between any two lots of Eley TENEX, or any two other makes of ammo in that class.
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metermatch
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:30 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
Testing ammo
I agree with most of the above. But I do think some ammo testing is necessary at all levels.
You have to look at how good the shooters are. It's been a while since I have seen a rule book to know the class names, but for NRA Marksman level shooters, get 2 or 3 lots of the cheapest ammo out there, and just start shooting. This is just to make sure you don't have junk ammo or rifle.
Sharpshooter level shooters should do more serious testing of the lower to mid grades of ammo. Learning to test ammo is a skill just like shooting. It is good practice to shoot off sand bags under your wrist with a scope.
Expert level shooter will be testing 3-10 different lots of mid grade, maybe some high grade stuff if they have the money, and some occasional cheap stuff as a benchmark and to see if they can get lucky.
Master level shooters are constantly testing the best ammo. To place high at Perry, or to set national records, it is at least 50% ammo, and the rest is you and the gun.
Forget trying to use some sort of machine rest. They don't work as well as you think. The gun needs something to recoil against (you) for it to shoot well in a match. Just because something shoots well in a rest doesn't mean it will shoot well with you holding and twisting the rifle when shooting. Hard to explain, but machine rests are kind of a "black art". If they worked that great, everyone would have one. Just shoot the gun prone with a sandbag under your wrist and a good scope.
The biggest trap to fall into is some new shooter that thinks if they buy Eley Tenex that they are going to magically be a Master shooter.
Jeff
You have to look at how good the shooters are. It's been a while since I have seen a rule book to know the class names, but for NRA Marksman level shooters, get 2 or 3 lots of the cheapest ammo out there, and just start shooting. This is just to make sure you don't have junk ammo or rifle.
Sharpshooter level shooters should do more serious testing of the lower to mid grades of ammo. Learning to test ammo is a skill just like shooting. It is good practice to shoot off sand bags under your wrist with a scope.
Expert level shooter will be testing 3-10 different lots of mid grade, maybe some high grade stuff if they have the money, and some occasional cheap stuff as a benchmark and to see if they can get lucky.
Master level shooters are constantly testing the best ammo. To place high at Perry, or to set national records, it is at least 50% ammo, and the rest is you and the gun.
Forget trying to use some sort of machine rest. They don't work as well as you think. The gun needs something to recoil against (you) for it to shoot well in a match. Just because something shoots well in a rest doesn't mean it will shoot well with you holding and twisting the rifle when shooting. Hard to explain, but machine rests are kind of a "black art". If they worked that great, everyone would have one. Just shoot the gun prone with a sandbag under your wrist and a good scope.
The biggest trap to fall into is some new shooter that thinks if they buy Eley Tenex that they are going to magically be a Master shooter.
Jeff
At that range indoors, you shouldn't notice any difference in groups unless the ammo is of a truly dire quality. No ammo is going to give you an "edge".
The only thing I would say, is that if it's outward scoring targets (break the line and get the lower score), then I would recommend Eley Team (blue label), or Eley Match (black label). These come with the EPS head, which means they stabilise in flight very efficiently and punch crisp, clean holes through the target. I find it can be worth a point or two sometimes - where cheaper brands would leave tears in the paper that allow a gauge to "fall out" of the ring. Eley Tenex also has the EPS head, but it is a complete waste of money using that indoors at short range - it will not be appreciably better than other brands.
Obviously if you use inward-scoring targets, then just use Eley Standard or whatever cheap ammo you can get. It doesn't matter if tears cross the scoring rings as you get the higher score anyway. As long as the ammo is not completely atrocious, it won't be much better or worse than any other brand.
As I say, Eley Team would be my first choice - it is the cheapest ammo with an EPS head, followed by Eley Match.
I don't know what sort of standard your HS team is shooting at, but if they're anything like our university team (which is largely comprised of people who've not shot before coming to uni, so are absolute novices), then I would also recommend if you get the opportunity to buy new rifles at some stage to invest in some 1907s/1913s. The heavier barrels will benefit shooters once they reach a certain stage, whereas the cheap, lightweight 1903 barrels will hold them back. Again, that sort of thing is not very noticeable at 50ft indoors, but if you take them outdoors over long ranges, the poorer quality barrels will start to struggle.
The only thing I would say, is that if it's outward scoring targets (break the line and get the lower score), then I would recommend Eley Team (blue label), or Eley Match (black label). These come with the EPS head, which means they stabilise in flight very efficiently and punch crisp, clean holes through the target. I find it can be worth a point or two sometimes - where cheaper brands would leave tears in the paper that allow a gauge to "fall out" of the ring. Eley Tenex also has the EPS head, but it is a complete waste of money using that indoors at short range - it will not be appreciably better than other brands.
Obviously if you use inward-scoring targets, then just use Eley Standard or whatever cheap ammo you can get. It doesn't matter if tears cross the scoring rings as you get the higher score anyway. As long as the ammo is not completely atrocious, it won't be much better or worse than any other brand.
As I say, Eley Team would be my first choice - it is the cheapest ammo with an EPS head, followed by Eley Match.
I don't know what sort of standard your HS team is shooting at, but if they're anything like our university team (which is largely comprised of people who've not shot before coming to uni, so are absolute novices), then I would also recommend if you get the opportunity to buy new rifles at some stage to invest in some 1907s/1913s. The heavier barrels will benefit shooters once they reach a certain stage, whereas the cheap, lightweight 1903 barrels will hold them back. Again, that sort of thing is not very noticeable at 50ft indoors, but if you take them outdoors over long ranges, the poorer quality barrels will start to struggle.
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Guest
Hemmers wrote:At that range indoors, you shouldn't notice any difference in groups unless the ammo is of a truly dire quality. No ammo is going to give you an "edge".
The only thing I would say, is that if it's outward scoring targets (break the line and get the lower score), then I would recommend Eley Team (blue label), or Eley Match (black label). These come with the EPS head, which means they stabilise in flight very efficiently and punch crisp, clean holes through the target. I find it can be worth a point or two sometimes - where cheaper brands would leave tears in the paper that allow a gauge to "fall out" of the ring. Eley Tenex also has the EPS head, but it is a complete waste of money using that indoors at short range - it will not be appreciably better than other brands.
Obviously if you use inward-scoring targets, then just use Eley Standard or whatever cheap ammo you can get. It doesn't matter if tears cross the scoring rings as you get the higher score anyway. As long as the ammo is not completely atrocious, it won't be much better or worse than any other brand.
As I say, Eley Team would be my first choice - it is the cheapest ammo with an EPS head, followed by Eley Match.
I don't know what sort of standard your HS team is shooting at, but if they're anything like our university team (which is largely comprised of people who've not shot before coming to uni, so are absolute novices), then I would also recommend if you get the opportunity to buy new rifles at some stage to invest in some 1907s/1913s. The heavier barrels will benefit shooters once they reach a certain stage, whereas the cheap, lightweight 1903 barrels will hold them back. Again, that sort of thing is not very noticeable at 50ft indoors, but if you take them outdoors over long ranges, the poorer quality barrels will start to struggle.
I think this is very good advice. I think a few 1907s issued to the better shooters will provide better scores utilizing "affordable" ammo. 1903 and Wolf ammo are an excellent combo for the junior shooters.