TargetTalk

It has come to my attention that during Air Pistol competitions some new shooters are changing their stance and the pistol to the other hand and waving their arm up and down a few times, before returning the pistol to the shooting hand, and continueing with their match.

Surely this should only be done in Preparation Time, - not after every few shots during the comeptition.?

I understand this is what the coaches are telling them to do - to "balance their body."

However, on open ranges, where there are no high dividers between the shooters, this can be Very distracting to the person in the next bay.

Does this constitute a disturbance?

If so, on what grounds can you appeal to the Range Officer? What rules cover this?

It is happening ferquently, and is Very annoying to someone trying hard to concentrate. Blinkers don't block it out.

AlexL.

Focus on your own shooting. What others do is not important.

Disturbance, absolutely not.

Alex L wrote:Does this constitute a disturbance?

Not in my opinion.

although posted by Alex, the query comes from his (delightful) spouse Elizabeth.
- A major problem arises when shooters carry out these 'exercises' and ignore the requirements of 8.2.5.1 When the pistol is out of its case, the pistol must always be pointed in a safe direction... Similarly the old favourite of raising the pistol to vertical (or near it) which is now hardly ever seen at an ISSF Championship - most juries have pointed out the infringement to the shooters concerned. An infringement of this type is actionable.
- Unfortunately, there is no rule that requires a shooter to be considerate to other shooters
- the disturbance rules (8.6.7>>) really only cover a shooter disturbed while firing a shot
- at a club event, you could always take the matter up with the club committee.

I tend to agree with Ralf; even without side blinkers (I don't use them) I am not normally aware of adjacent shooters' actions unless there is some excessive noise (or expletive).

Spencer

Spencer wrote:although posted by Alex, the query comes from his (delightful) spouse Elizabeth.
- A major problem arises when shooters carry out these 'exercises' and ignore the requirements of 8.2.5.1 When the pistol is out of its case, the pistol must always be pointed in a safe direction...

Nowhere in Alex's post does he mention 'waving the gun around' he's refering to waving the shooting arm around, after the gun has been moved to the other hand - that's perfectly acceptable (with the obvious caveat of it still being pointed in a safe direction)

Similarly the old favourite of raising the pistol to vertical (or near it) which is now hardly ever seen at an ISSF Championship - most juries have pointed out the infringement to the shooters concerned. An infringement of this type is actionable.
<snip>
Spencer

You didn't watch the pistol shooting in the olympics very well then. Some of the shooters raise much higher than the back wall with both AP and FP, the Bulgarian springs to mind if I recall correctly. I personally think there were a number of rule infringements that were not picked up that should have been.

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote:

Spencer wrote:although posted by Alex, the query comes from his (delightful) spouse Elizabeth.
- A major problem arises when shooters carry out these 'exercises' and ignore the requirements of 8.2.5.1 When the pistol is out of its case, the pistol must always be pointed in a safe direction...

Nowhere in Alex's post does he mention 'waving the gun around' he's refering to waving the shooting arm around, after the gun has been moved to the other hand - that's perfectly acceptable (with the obvious caveat of it still being pointed in a safe direction)

I took Alex's post to say that the gun was transferred to the non-shooting hand, the stance was changed and that the non-shooting arm (and consequently the gun) was being waved up and down.

We need to remember that rule 8.2.5.1 actually makes a distinction between an open and a closed pistol. The only requirement for an open air pistol is that it should be pointed in a "safe direction". It is only when it is shut that it must be "pointing down range in a safe direction toward the target/butt stop area".

What is a "safe direction" for an open pistol? IMHO it is any direction where there is no chance of it pointing at someone. Therefore, "waving their arm up and down", even if it went up to the vertical, provided that it was moving through the general target area (i.e. not towards the spectators), would probably still be a safe direction.

1/ ...with the obvious caveat of it still being pointed in a safe direction - RobStubbs
...even if it went up to the vertical, provided that it was moving through the general target area (i.e. not towards the spectators), would probably still be a safe direction. - David levene

Sigh! If only...

2/ Liz' original query (off TargetTalk) referred to "changing hands with the pistol, and waving it up and down a few times"

3/ re "I personally think there were a number of rule infringements that were not picked up that should have been" - RobStubbs:
There might be shooters who are prepared to 'push the boundaries' on the basis that the range officials would be reluctant to make a fuss in front of the cameras at the Olympics. I was not on the field of play for the last two Olympics, but know from personal experience this was the case in 1996 and 2000.


Spencer

David Levene wrote: I took Alex's post to say that the gun was transferred to the non-shooting hand, the stance was changed and that the non-shooting arm (and consequently the gun) was being waved up and down.
<snip>
.

Maybe Alex can clarify but even re-reading it I cannot see it implying that. I also cannot see the purpose of waving the non-shooting arm around with a gun in it. I can however see the benefit of 'loosening' the shooting arm without a gun. And holding the gun is still preferable to placing it down on the table whilst loaded and the breech closed. Which is another pet hate of mine, which is also not permitted, and which a number of range officers still ignore even when pointed out to them (not you David, others at the BAC this year).

Rob.

On the two separable issues:

Safety

- As long as muzzle is pointed down range and/or
- Placed on bench with loading lever cracked open (don't most pistols allow you to "safe" the gun by [at least partially] opening the breech?); and/or
- muzzle is not pointed anywhere but downrange in any case
- if, during the loft, the loaded gun with breech closed is pointed between the horizontal and the vertical it's o.k. as long as the finger is outside the trigger guard?


Disturbance

- You aren't being shot at
- The muzzle isn't being pointed at you at all (breech open or closed)
- No loud noises are being generated

there has been no "disturbance" per se? Unless it involves the use of flash photography etc. is a "visual disturbance" even possible?

Steve Swartz wrote:- if, during the loft, the loaded gun with breech closed is pointed between the horizontal and the vertical it's o.k. as long as the finger is outside the trigger guard?

I'm afraid not Steve. Don't forget the part of 8.2.5.1 that says "The action, breech or loading device must not be closed until the pistol is pointing down range in a safe direction toward the target/butt stop area."

It's the last bit that stops you pointing a closed AP at the ceiling. It was specifically added in the 2nd printing of the 2005 rules which were effective from 01/01/2006. Anybody who is just relying on the printed ISSF rule book (which was only the 1st printing), or the online USAS rulebook, will be unaware of the clause.

Unfortunately, having amended the rule, the ISSF have been reluctant to insist that juries apply it at ISSF competitions.

So technically, we have to integrate closing the breech into our shot plan somewhere between "acquire the target" and "release the shot!"

I should probably get one of those rulebook thingies everyone is talking about . . . (I have paper copy circa 2005ish).

Once again David spot-on with the straight info.

Probably not enforced because it's a) silly and b) unenforceable.

Thank you, 'Charming' Spencer, for the 'Delightful' tag!!!!!! :))

The shooter was standing close to me in the next bay, and every few minutes she changed her stance, and put the pistol into her left hand,, then waved it up and down in a vertical movement - still pointing towards the target wall. She then changed her stance back to "normal", changed hands again, and then waved again a couple of times, before loading and firing a few more shots.

I feel this so called "Body Balancing" should only be done during Preparation time - not constantly during the competition. The coaches should explain that it should only be done before the match, not during it.

Yes, I know - if I was concentrating well, I would not have seen the flickering in my perifieral vision, - but we can't all concentrate well Every time we shoot, or for the whole match, as much as we would like to.

I found I had to stop and take a "rest" while she did her "exercises" a couple of times, - and this broke my concentration each time.

Thanks to you all for your thoughts on this. It has been very interresting to hear your replies.
However, if I was R.O -ing, I would go and talk to the shooter. I think the R.O should be more aware of this sort of thing, - not the shooter have to go and complain.
Liz! (Alex.L 's better half!)

Steve Swartz wrote:So technically, we have to integrate closing the breech into our shot plan somewhere between "acquire the target" and "release the shot!"

nowhere that stringent - just keep the pistol pointed downrange!

Steve Swartz wrote:I should probably get one of those rulebook thingies everyone is talking about . . . (I have paper copy circa 2005ish).

Yep. knowing the rules can be an advantage.

Steve Swartz wrote:Probably not enforced because it's a) silly and b) unenforceable.

a) not so silly when someone lets off a shot! E.g. the daylight gap above the backstop at the Lord Roberts Centre (Bisley) is just about right to drop a shot onto the clubhouses.
b) it is enforcable.

Spencer

Alex L wrote:The shooter was standing close to me in the next bay, and every few minutes she changed her stance, and put the pistol into her left hand,, then waved it up and down in a vertical movement - still pointing towards the target wall. She then changed her stance back to "normal", changed hands again, and then waved again a couple of times, before loading and firing a few more shots.

I feel this so called "Body Balancing" should only be done during Preparation time - not constantly during the competition. The coaches should explain that it should only be done before the match, not during it.

Liz! (Alex.L 's better half!)

Liz/Alex, it is obvious that we cannot judge the severity of this "waving up an down" but provided it was done safely, and from your description it would appear to have been, then IMHO your complaint would be unjustified.

Just because a shooter's procedure is different to normal (whatever normal may be) it doesn't mean that it is against the rules.

David Levene wrote: Liz/Alex, it is obvious that we cannot judge the severity of this "waving up an down" but provided it was done safely, and from your description it would appear to have been, then IMHO your complaint would be unjustified.

Just because a shooter's procedure is different to normal (whatever normal may be) it doesn't mean that it is against the rules.

Agreed. Whether at a world cup, or a local match, just because they are engaged in an activity different from everyone else, and it does not constitute a safety infraction, an official isn't necessarily justified in approaching a competitor and disturbing them. That could result in an protest by the disturbed athlete.

I know an athlete that was thrown off by how fast her neighboring competitor shot precision in the Ladies' 25m pistol event. Instead of taking 5 minutes, her competitor banged them out in under 1.5 min. Was it different and distracting, yes. Was it actionable? Of course not. She realised that the disturbance was her response to something outside of her experience. She had to improve her focus and move on.

I have some shots of Kanstantsin Lukashyk of BLR holding his loaded air pistol almost vertical before lowering it to the target. From the 2004 Athens World Cup, I have video of him on the line, holding his pistol in his non-shooting hand, doing raises while standing on one foot. I kid you not... Nobody spoke to him because it wasn't seen as a violation of the rules. Was it bizarre? Certainly, and it makes for interesting conversations.

Instead of looking to change someone else's behaviour, look inward first. Its the only way to grow in the sport.

Patrick

Patrick Haynes wrote:I know an athlete that was thrown off by how fast her neighboring competitor shot precision in the Ladies' 25m pistol event. Instead of taking 5 minutes, her competitor banged them out in under 1.5 min. Was it different and distracting, yes. Was it actionable? Of course not.

Wait until you shoot a minor 25 m Centrefire Pistol match (all starters you expect with silent .32 WCs of course), and the chap or chapette next to you blasts away with a 7,62 mm Tokarev (fully allowed under the rules). :-)

Alexander

Spencer wrote:

Steve Swartz wrote:So technically, we have to integrate closing the breech into our shot plan somewhere between "acquire the target" and "release the shot!"

nowhere that stringent - just keep the pistol pointed downrange!

Agreed, otherwise shooting from the Ready position would be a bit problematic ;-)

Alexander wrote:

Patrick Haynes wrote:I know an athlete that was thrown off by how fast her neighboring competitor shot precision in the Ladies' 25m pistol event. Instead of taking 5 minutes, her competitor banged them out in under 1.5 min. Was it different and distracting, yes. Was it actionable? Of course not.

Wait until you shoot a minor 25 m Centrefire Pistol match (all starters you expect with silent .32 WCs of course), and the chap or chapette next to you blasts away with a 7,62 mm Tokarev (fully allowed under the rules). :-)

Alexander

Lol:
I was training with FP, and some guy next to me opened up with a 45-70 revolver. After cleaning out my pants, I decided to upgrade my hearing protection and enhance my concentration skills.

Here's Lukashyk with his high raise at the 2006 Munich WC and his offhand raises at the 2004 Athens World Cup. People do different things on the line.

The more you see, the less bizarre certain behaviour appears. Go out, train in different places, experience different shooters and learn to control your attention and monitor your response.

Its all part of personal distraction control.

Patrick