TargetTalk

Interested in building a 1911 in .38 Special as an off season project this winter. Anybody know who makes a 1911 barrel in .38 Special? I know the Clark models are available used, but I would enjoy the challenge of building one. Any tips or information greatly appreciated!

John,
Bar-Sto should probably make you a barrel.
The Jiels (sp?) were made from a 38 Super barrel that was rechambered.
I have a few of the orginial Colt Mid-Range 38 Spl., they used a ribbed chamber, being that they were blowback. The brass would expand into the ribs thus delaying the blow back just long enough.
I have one Mid Range with a bad barrel (was stolen and later found in a snow bank) that I have always planned to sleeve down to 32 H&R. I quess that will end up being a retirement project. As a pistolsmith I can never get to my own projects, :-)
Hope tha helps,
Dennis

John,
Have you checked with Kart barrels? I thought they offered a 39spl barrel?
-s

John,
Kart makes them in NM or easy fit configuration, in 5" or 6", the latter available with a fitted bushing for either a 5" or 6" slide. Either way, they told me to expect it to possibly be a bit short chambered, so count on spending a bit extra for a finishing reamer. If I recall correctly, the 6" in NM configuration was between $250-300. Another option is to order a Clark barrel in 38 sp. The price is under $200 and comes only 6", so you will need to have a bit sticking out the front, or cut it down.
By the way, there is an excellent book called (I think) "U.S. Military Marksmanship and Match Pistols" that has a chapter on the development of the 38 wadcutter 1911. There is some good general info, although it largely neglects John Giles, who not only did lots of the pioneer work but whose 38 conversions were the best IMHO.
Jim
Please keep us informed of your progress!!!

Great info!

I called Kart Precision in N.C. and they do make a .38 Special, 1911 barrel & bushing in the "Easy Fit" configuration! (Dennis - I think the "easy Fit" will be better for me than BarSto, but thanks!)

Quoted me $205. Kart said Brownells, for whatever reason, doesn't carry the .38 Special line but Gil Heberd does. Yeah Gil Hebard!!! (I'll order thru him, like to support he, Larry Carter, etc.)

6string, that looks like a great book, can't believe I've never heard of it! $49.95 on Amazon and I'm going to order it. I'm also going to get the Kuhnhausen Vol. 1 & 2 from Brownels.

Some more preliminary dumb questions. Any opinions about the ramped versus non-ramped Kart barrel set up? I think Caspian makes frames for either style??? Also (Casipan tech person on vacation), anybody know if the Caspian ".38s" slide/frame work with the Kart .38 Special barrels? Doesn't ".38s" mean .38 Super?

Thanks in advance!

John,

My Giles is non-ramped and it totally reliable. My Clark is ramped but I haven't found it to be quite as reliable...yet! I think either can work well if set up properly, which is largely a matter of magazine fitting. You can make your own magazines from metalform 38 super mags. The feed lips are reshaped and bent to control feeding so the next cartridge is almost in line with the chamber when the slide is back.
As for slides, you'll have to ask Caspian about their breechface measurement. The 38 super has slightly smaller rim diameter than the 38special. Mine are built on old Colt 38s, and I don't see any evidence that the breechface was machined. It may have been just oversized enough to work as is.
Hope that helps,
Jim
PS Brownell's will special order the Clark or Kart barrel. Gil Hebard may need to special order them, as they were not in stock when I called in the Fall.

While slightly off topic was is the value of a giles Colt Mid-Range 38 Spl? I've been offered one that has only been test fired, but no clue on the value.

Brian

Brian,
From a shooter's perspective, as opposed to a collector's, I would value it as a S&W Model 52-2. As a guide: I purchased an 'unfired' 52-2 for $700 just short of three years ago. Prices have risen since then, so $700 to $800 would be my suggestion.
Being a 1911, the Giles gun would be easier to make pass the ISSF Center Fire trigger weight requirement than would a Model 52. You do shoot ISSF, don't you? :-)
M.T.

Brian, I have seen A FEW Colts in 38spl. HONESTLY,,,,,,,,,,,NOT ONE OF THEM SHOT WORTH A HOOT! Just my experiences here. I have 4 S&W 52-2s and they ALL shoot very fine. Personally, I would not waste time nor funds on a Colt in 38 SPL. I consulted some very reputable builders and they all told me that it would be a gamble at best trying to " accurize" a Colt 38. The Clarks and Giles are not included with the Colts, as they are both fine pistols.

[quote="6string"]
My Giles is non-ramped and it totally reliable. My Clark is ramped but I haven't found it to be quite as reliable...yet! I think either can work well if set up properly, which is largely a matter of magazine fitting. You can make your own magazines from metalform 38 super mags. The feed lips are reshaped and bent to control feeding so the next cartridge is almost in line with the chamber when the slide is back.
[/quote]

Jim,

Can you explain what a "ramp" or "non-ramp" barrel is? Can I ask you to elaborate on how to make your own magazines?

TIA,
-Steve

Brian, Mike, Guest, etc.,... not off topic at all! The more information the better.

Can you guys (and/or gals!) elaborate on why you think the Colt's were innaccurate? Loose slides, bushings, lower lug fit... all of the above?

6string (Jim), I'm also interested in the Metalform 38 Super mag alteration. Do you own one of these altered mags and if so can you post a picture of it, or better yet, a before and after? If not, can you post a picture of a Colt or other .38 Special mag so I can see what the factory feed lips look like?

Thanks, John

I don't find my Colt .38 inaccurate. Quite the contrary. It shoots every bit as well (and as reliably) as my 52-1 and 52-2.
The gun is a Colt 'Super .38 Automatic'. I bought it used, so I do not know its history.
I presume it started life in .38 Super calibre. At some stage it was converted to .38 Special calibre. The magazines will only accept flush-seated wad-cutters. I presume the gun was "accurized" by some skilled person. The fits of bushing, barrel, and slide are tight - no rattles, no play. Rear sight is an Elliason. A device (a machined block of steel) that I believe is known as a "tuner", has been fitted to the slide at the top rear of the ejection port. When the slide is in battery, the forward underside of this tuner just bears against the top of the barrel hood (or vice-versa). There is a shim fitted underneath the tuner (so that it can be 'tuned'?). In lock-up, there is absolutely no movement of the barrel when pressing down upon the top of the barrel exposed in the ejection port. It would seem the barrel has been fitted by modifying the top and/or the bottom lugs because the firing pin is not centered on the cartridge - a feature, I have read, of early such conversions. (Nowadays, I understand, good pistolsmiths ensure the firing pin is centered.) Trigger let-off is crisp and without backlash. The front strap of the grip frame and the back of the mainspring housing have been stippled to provide a non-slip surface.
The barrel bears no proof marks, no calibre designation, no identification marks of any kind. To my semi-trained eye, I see no evidence of welding on the barrel.
Who made the barrel and who made the conversion, I do not know - but they did make a good job of it!
The magazines are stamped "COLT .38 SPEC." on the base plate. Are they Colt originals? I do not know - but they work reliably.

I would provide photos if someone would enlighten me as to the procedure for posting them.
Mike T.

Spoke with Caspian. "38s" is .38 Super, not .38 Special. They suggested I use the .40 Cal slide with a modified .40 Cal. extractor over their .38s Frame.

Mike, great information - thanks. I've never posted pics myself but many seem to link pictures through photobucket. I'll review their site and tell you what I find. Couldn't find any instructions in the Target Talk archives.

Question: should this thread be moved to "Shooters Lounge"?

Trying to post pictures of various 38spl magazines. The first image is from Colt. It's marked Colt 38 spec on the bottom. The 2nd image is a modified 38 Super magazine, and the last image is an unknown mfg. Hopefully, the pictures are in the right order.
-s

Bummer7, If you're still around (almost two years!), would it be possible to post pictures from side, top, and back of the altered 38 Super mag so I could see how the feed lips were done?

Thanks, John

Sure, Give me a day to take some pictures of the modifed .38 Super magazines. I take it you only want to see the magazine opening showing where the cuts was made to hold/align the round and the bent lips to guide it.
-s

I once picked up a Colt in .38 Spec. in a trade. If I recall correctly it had a Colt "kit" in it. The barrel was marked .38 Spec. The magazines used only wadcutters.

Man, it was fussy. I spent hours with that thing and a Ransom Rest. It finally came through for me though.

There was only ONE load that was both accurate and reliable; the hotter than recommended 3.2 gr. 700X and a Speer 148gr. HBWC.

It's funny, that load worked equally well in my S&W52, but the Colt didn't support the rear of the case very well and the bulging made me nervous.

I happily shot several 99s in Standard Pistol with that gun, but sold it off when I was offered more than I could resist in spite of my "fussy" warning.

this all depends on what you going to do with it, If you plan to shoot it in the centerfire leg of the 2700 match, you may be putting yourself at more of a challenge than you need. I shoot with a guy here that uses a 1911 38 and he averages 790's. The highest I've ever seen him shoot is a 820. But, he struggles with the 45. Shoots very well with the 22 master scores. The problem with the 38 is that you have to learn a new gun. It's another load to fuss with and you never will get it as accurate from the long line, as you can a 45. My trainer is a distinguished high master and we've talked about his for quite some time. He told me to shoot the 45, learn that gun, until you master it, and forget the 38. This is truly a two gun match, 22 45. AFter that advice, I went through sharpshooter flying and almost through expert now. Should achieve master by the end of the year. The 45 is far superior I believe in 2700 matches. I would stick with those if I was wanting to progress in the 2700 matches. Good Luck!

Bummer7, You're the best!

Yes, the areas you mention on the 38 Super that were modified. I assume the follower and the rest of the mag remain unaltered? Would it also be possible to show a round seated in the mag, from the rear, so I see how high it sits.

By the way, I think the unidentified mag in your pics is a Triple K 38 Special mag. They typically had a two-piece solid aluminium follower from what I understand.

Thanks, John

Sorry for the delay. I meant to take pictures a few nights back but didn't get around to doing this until today. The attached pictures are of a modified Colt.38 Super Magazine. I think resize the pictures and cut the resolution in order to meet the website requirements.

If you PM me your private email address - I'll send you the full size pictures via email. Be aware the originalpictures range from 800K to 1.1Mb in size.

-s