TargetTalk

I am hoping someone can offer some advice to a new air rifle silhouette shooter. I coach a new 4H team (first year) and one of my shooters was fortunate enough to be invited to the 4H National Match this year. However, we are unfamiliar with the silhouette match. What should we expect? How should we train? What size are the targets? What scope, if any, should we use on a Daisy 853? Please help!!!

Scott

While the 853 has enough velocity to knock down a ram .... the hold over is going to be pretty high. Can you get your hands on an 888 or an XSV-40 and put a scope on that?

If you put a scope on it you will have to shim the back rings ... my guess is maybe 2-3 coke can (thickness) shims. I use 7X scopes on our guns and sight in for the turkeys and teach "hold under" distances.
It's a shame that the Nebraska folks limited the kids to CMP sporter guns this year, but it does keep it affordable for most of the teams that come.

Silhouette is outdoors, and last year the winds in Relays 2 & 3 were howling (40-55 mph) .... it was lifting the shade tents that were staked into the ground and tossing them. Hope you don't have that kind of wind this year. If you do all you can do is laugh it off and watch the pellet do goofy things on the way down range.

Chickens are at 20yds or meters ( ... my guess is yards)
Pigs are at 30
Turkeys are at 36
and Rams are at 45

Email me and I'll email you back a PDF file that has the correct size paper images and practice and get the rifle sighted on those. If you have the metallic ones use those after the shooter knows they can get it in the black.

Just take one of your backstop outside and mark off the appropriate distances and pin thses targets to it

Air.Rifle(at)VC4HSS.com --- fix the at in the address


Practice the 3-P and International events hard .... those are the two that will not have a weather effect and will be indoors. Make surte they are using a sling in the prone and kneeling of 3-P. I cannot believe how many kids I saw last year not using a sling.

Good luck, and feel free to look up the NM team .... they are using our 887's with scopes ....

I, too, am taking a "green" 4H silhouette team to Nationals. We found that the CO2 powered guns have that little extra "oomph" for the silhouette game. We were able to secure a second rifle to put the scope on so we didn't have to mess with the target gun. We are taking the 887 for 3P and standing and will use the 888 for silhouette with a BSA Air Rifle scope that goes from 3 to 7 power. It's the only one so far that we have found works for this game and the rifle we have. (we experimented with various rifles and scopes over the winter)

I've used Joel's paper targets for helping the kids get sighted in and they work a lot better than shooting at the metal silhouettes and guessing where your pellet went. We wrote down the scope settings and have it in the offhand stand for when we get there.

I'm looking forward to this at the Nationals to see how it's REALLY done.

Good luck!

Joel and CitoriGirl,

Thanks for your advice. It is most helpful. I have a few more questions, if you don't mind.

1) How hight will the silhouettes be set above the ground?
2) Regarding shoes, the rules are very specific and detailed. Are regular street shoes that kids wear allowed?
3) In the 3P match can the shooter change slings? My shooter has put duct tape on his sling for the kneeling position. Can he use one sling that is adjusted and fixed for the kneeling position then change to a sling that is adjusted and fixed for the prone position?
4) We have purchased 4.5mm pellets (brand is Champions Choice, but manufactured by H&N) to shoot in our Daisy 853. What is the significance of the 4.5mm? Do Daisy 853's have a length prefernce?

Thanks again for your help.

Scott

Scott ....
1) Height : approx 32" .... about table top height. Depends on who makes the stands.

2) Boots: Remember that each of the events has it's own set of rules from the associated NGB. The Air Rifle Silhouette is governed by the NRA rules.
A link to all the NRA rulebooks is here:
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/nra-rule-books.asp
In short, there is no restriction of footware for the silhouette event.

You are only limited to "below the ankle" footware in the 3-P and International events though as they are governed specifically by "Sporter Air Rifle" rules.

3) Slings: Refer to the "Blue Book" rule 4.3.3 here. If the duct tape is used to keep the sling from slipping down the arm, my interpretation would be that it is not legal (not "stitched" into the lining). If the duct tape is used as "padding", that is specifically not allowed.
However if it is used to keep the sling at the same length, the rules say "may have a means of adjusting it's length" ... it is not required, so my view is that is OK.
I see nothing in the rules that state they are limited to only one sling, however:
An Opinion: I do not agree with fixing the length in general because the shooter's position will change as they stretch into position. As they move around the AR-5/10 target they should be using the sling adjustments to help steady the rifle if necessary. If the shooter tapes it down, then they are essentially "stuck" with no adjustment

4) Pellet Size: 4.5mm refers to the diameter of the pellet. .177"=4.5mm (plus or minus). ALL guns (Air, Smallbore, Rifle/Pistol, Muzz, cannon, etc) will have a preferred ammo. Pellets can come in .177 sizes of say 4.48mm thru 4.52 even depending on who makes them. The weight of the pellets can also vary (sometimes called "heavy" pellets for rifles and "light" for air pistols and pneumatic rifles like the 853's.
For our 887s/888's and XSV40's we use H&N 4.50 pellets across the board. For our precision rifles you have to test to see which shoots better ... At this date, and with the 853's I don't think I'd bother to do the pellet testing. If you ever get interested in testing pellets there are some good threads on this board, but realize you'll end up spending lots of time with many different varieties of pellets to find out which gun shoots what best. Generally, I think most would agree that shooting under sporter rules, the pellet is not the limiting factor .... the shooter is.
A caution here .... whatever you do, DON'T just go buy the Wallyworld pellets .... they are so inconsistently made they probably won't even hold a 6 ring off the bench.
The H&N's you have will consistently hold the 9+++ ring in the 853's.

Long winded I know .... again let your shooter know I don't agree with the fixed sling length in kneeling. If they are below a 500 sporter shooter in 3x20's, it probably does not matter, but if they are in the 530+, then they need to think and (possibly) adjust for each & every shot .... I'd get them into the good habits early

Hmmmm.....I'm confused: I didn't think a sling was allowed for the silhouette match at Nationals? If I'm wrong, PLEASE correct me so we can start practicing with it.

Pellets: We shoot the Champion's Choice "Diablo" pellets in the green tin and really like them. We have also tried the Meisterkugeln but found the slightly cheaper CC pellets work just great. I totally agree with Joel: do NOT use the cheap-o pellets = you get what you pay for with them.

You are correct .... sling is only allowed in the 3-P event in the prone & kneeling positions

Joel and CitoriGirl,

I just wanted to thank you for your advice. It was most helpful. We got back from Nationals late Friday night. My shooter did a great job. He finished somewhere in the middle of the pack overall. He finished 24th out of 51 on silhouettes. He hit 9 of 40. That was his second competition ever, so I was very proud of him.

Thanks again for your help.

Scott

GREAT! I should have looked you up when we were out there. We were on the 3rd relay and the wind was doing some funky switching and then it quit and got REALLY HOT. The only thing I would have done differently was to swap out cylinders on the 888 halfway through the match. By the time our last 3 shots were fired, they were hitting the 2x4 under the animal and really losing power. We did end up placing in the top 10 and it was our 2nd competition, too. I'm looking forward to taking more kids to this event!

I wish we had met! We had a great time. I noticed many of the shooters using the 888's were having CO2 problems. We thought we might be a bit "undergunned" using the 753, but it worked great. If you hit the target, it fell over. Several people suggested it wouldn't have enough power to knock the targets off, but it did. I guess more power just gives you a larger "kill zone".

I had sent two 887's out with the NM team this year, and the heat got to one of them. If a cylinder on an 888/887 gets too hot, the pressure inside the cylinder is so high that the hammer cannot drive the valve. All the shots from one of our shooters were way low on Pigs thru Rams. Finally it just stopped shooting. She declared a malfunction and got out her 3-P gun and hit the last 6 of her chickens.

I REALLY hate learning lessons this way. We had thought that only filling the cylinders half full would keep us out of this fix.

Next year we're sending out XSV-40s for the Silhouette Match ....

Anybody have a clue when/if 4-H will get around to posting results AND scores for this years tournament? ... The only results that are complete are those that Sheri Judd from CMP posted on the CMP website ... basically Air Rifle

Not sure when the results will be posted - we're anxiously awaiting them, too!

Regarding results, all I can find are Tuesday's results. I don't know what is taking so long. I couldn't believe how fast the air rifle scores got posted to the CMP site.

Are the XSV-40 rifles still manufactured? Where do you buy them from? Another Tennessee coach suggested Crossman's Quest rifle for silhouettes. It is a break action rifle, but has good power...about 1000 fps I think. Can you tell me anything about the Crossman or where to get teh XSV-40?

Scott

I'm responding to the 4 H coach that asked about a source for the daisy compressed air XV40 Call Champions Choice at 615 783 4066 or 1 800 345 7179 to order. Ask for the air arms S200 and sights for the same. This is the legal sporter air rifle since Daisy no longer sells the one you mentioned. As you get into compressed air you will need some method of filling the cylinder. You will find the same source mentioned also carries a hand pump suitable for refilling the cylinders'. It is also possible to refill using a scuba tank with an adapter. Good Shooting Bill Horton

I couldn't believe how fast the air rifle scores got posted to the CMP site.

Sheri Judd from CMP graciously comes out and works the 4-H Air Rifle match. She has a wireless network card that the scores are uploaded to the CMP website as the match progresses and scores are entered. 4-H is a member of the National 3-P Air Rifle Council and as such, the 3-P match at Nationals is the 4-H Council Championship which earns EIC points. She always has the other events set up on the website so that she can enter them, but the other events never bother to get her the scores or results. I do notice that she got the Air Pistol Slow fire results up though. Last year it was a good thing she had posted the results as the "official laptop" results spreadsheet got really messed up and the only way they recovered was by using her results.

Are the XSV-40 rifles still manufactured?

No ... as Bill said, the S200 (used to be the T200) from Air Arms is the same action, different stock. If you get in good with a local JROTC program, maybe they will let you borrow a few after school is out to use.

Crossman's Quest rifle for silhouettes.

The are a lot of good silhouette air rifles, but the Nebraska folks running the event have specified that only N3PARC rifles were valid this year (and next). So the Quest is not legal. We had picked up two Anschutz 8002 Air Rifles to mount scopes on, and had to shift them over to shooters that wanted to use them for precision.

Now that there is no longer a 4-H Shooting Sports Foundation, I expect as we shift from venue to venue every two years, since the hosting organization has FULL control over the way the Invitational will run, we will see more of these last minute changes in rules as we approach the summer match

I know this is a very old topic, but since I still refer to the old posts thought maybe others do too.

This is the equipment requirements for NRA Air Rifle Silhouettes:
Rule 3.3 (b) Sporter Air Rifle: Any unaltered factory sporter air rifle that is or was a catalogue item, readily available over the counter to the general public, weighing no more than 11 pounds, with scope and mounts. Rifles utilizing pre-charged systems of any kind other than 12.0 gram disposable C02 units are prohibited (That is not a misprint - 12 gram disposable CO2 cartridge air rifles are allowed, pre-charged CO2 and compressed air rifles are not). HOWEVER, 4-H allows for an exception to the NRA Equipment rule for this match: Rifles that qualify for the 3-P and Standing event may also be used; in addition to those meeting the NRA 3.3 rule. Only .177 caliber rifles are allowed.

Clarification on the Daisy XSV-40, Air Arms/CZ S200 and T200 mentioned above...
The Daisy XSV-40 (Valiant) is no longer made by Daisy. It is made by Air Arms and is sold as the T200. Both the Daisy XSV-40 and the T200 are legal for 4-H 3P air rifle. The S200 looks identical to the T200 and XSV-40, but is NOT legal for 3P air rifle. The S200 is NOT a replacement for the T200, it is a high velocity version of the T200.

With regards to 4-H air rifle silhouette - The T200 is legal. The S200 is NOT.

jdomangue wrote:With regards to 4-H air rifle silhouette - The T200 is legal. The S200 is NOT.

These have been marketed by different vendors in different ways over the years. SOME "S200s" may indeed be legal.
(I KNOW ... ALL THE MORE CONFUSING)
If there is a doubt, chronograph the rifle ... if over 600fps it is not legal. It will damage/destroy the chickens in silhouette and you can be disqualified.

Call Champions Choice at 615 783 4066 or 1 800 345 7179 to order. Ask for the air arms S200 and sights for the same. This is the legal sporter air rifle since Daisy no longer sells the one you mentioned.

My original post was added so those reading this string would not call Champions Choice and order the S200. I posted AFTER checking with the 4-H National Coordinator, who said the S200 is NOT legal. The T200 (which Champions Choice sells) is legal for 4-H, but not for NRA air rifle silhouette.

Velocity is not the issue. The 600fps velocity limit is for 3P, which lists specifically the air rifles that can be used (all others must be approved before competition). The S200 is NOT on that list. The T200 is on that list.

If you read the NRA Air Rifle Rule Book (section 3.3), the ONLY pre-charged air rifles allowed for silhouettes are those that operate using a 12gram DISPOSABLE unit. According to the NRA, most of the air rifles on the 3P list are NOT legal for air rifle silhouettes. Truth is they are all underpowered.

Air rifle silhouette is intended to be shot with a spring-piston rifle (one you have to cock). Most of the spring-piston air rifles are well over 600fps (most closer to 1000fps). 4-H added an exception to allow the air rifles listed for 3P, first to helps with the equipment cost and second because most of the spring-piston air rifles are very heavy and would be difficult for youth shooters to manage.

Don't want to argue, just want to save people from spending over $700 on an air rifle that is not legal for any 4-H event.

Just noting that that velocity/power is the difference between the two.
The S200FT is the higher velocity Field Target Version, the T200 (Or as Air Arms calls it, the S200 Target) is the 3-P Sporter version.
Air Arms basically sells the S200 "Target" version everywhere in the world and renames it the T200 here in the US (and S. Africa as well) for the 3-P Sporter crowd to differentiate.

The only real way to tell them apart is to chronograph them, and even then the S200FT can be dialed down to sporter levels.

There are plenty of the older Air Arms MPRs (I've seen them) dialed down in 4-H inventories and have been used in the 4-H Nationals. Mainly in the 2007-2009 timeframe ... I've even seen them at 3-P Air events ... National 3PAR championships and American Legion championship.

Years ago (3-4??) the NRA Grant Fund store advertised the sporter as the S200 and they arrived marked as "S200 Target" on the shipping box, and "200 T" on the rifle receiver.

Again, If they don't chrono the guns they really cannot tell. They really are the same gun. The sporter will usually chronograph at 384-420 fps.
(I personally know anything over 500fps puts divots in and bends my chickens ... that one tiny little leg can't take it)

I DO agree with you .... don't order the S200FT. Differentiate here in the US and call it, and look for the T200. Make life easy.

e