Paging Professor Swartz, paging Professor Steve Swartz
Oh, Steve, there you are!
Got a question for you concerning foot position. I realize that the devil is in the details, but just how important is exact foot postioning? As I approach 60 with all the attendent aches and pains, I find it difficult to keep me feet in one place for more than a few minutes without the need to just move around a bit. However, I mark the floor with chalk so I can get my feet back to a pretty precise location. Is real close precise enough or should I just learn to bear the discomfort and perhaps speed up the shooting pace?
Now, I realize that is missive is in the public domain. However, I don't want any other shooters to get any earth-shattering revelations.
Sooooo, although I know you hail from the great state of Texas where statements like, "Yippee-ti-yi-yo, Yeeeeeeeehah and Git alone little dogie ," are considered to be elegant prose, could you please reach in the plethera of $0.25 words that you possess and provide we with acup with which to drink from the fountain of your knowledge. This will not only answer my query, but will give me some exercise as I walk from the computer to the Webster's or Roget's.
Best Regards y'all
Elliott Dushkin
foot position in Free Pistol
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-
Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Elliott:
Great to hear from you again! maybe I'll toss in a "YEE-HAW" or two at the end; I don't know about that other stuff.
O.K., start with the basics: why do we give a rip about foot position? Will the proper Arthur Murray cha-cha instantly give us tens? Well, probably not. Here's what I think- let's start with what makes one foot position better than another.
- Comfort for shooting the match
- Somewhere close to natural point of aim, so as to not create undue side-stress during hold
- Given those two, all other things being equal, there is some evidence that a foot position-stance that engages the fewest, and best conditioned muscles, may give us a more stable hold area
O.K., a couple of socratic type questions for you to think about; in addition to focusing on the three desired outcomes above, you need to sort out
- Will the "best" (according to three principles above) foot position/stance for you be the same:
-- any given day?
-- over the course of changing (better or worse) physical condition?
-- during a match, as you fatigue?
- What role does "absolute foot position" (relative to firing/trarget line) play vs. "relative" (to each other) foot position play:
-- facing toward/away from taget stance vs. muscles used in shoulder
-- facing toward/away from target stance vs. NPA
-- Toes in vs. toes out vs comfort/stability
Anyhow, didn't mean to make it more complicated than it already is- the improtant thing is to focus on foot position as a component of your stance, which includes torso lean, hip position etc.
BUT
The most important thing is to fool around with it until you feel you have gotten "in the ballpark" in terms of COMFORT and NPA first.
And don't use the chalk too much . . . you're scaring the LEOs on the range!
Best advice for "organized fooling around" is this. Approach the firing line with gun unloaded. Assume what you think is a comfortable stance (feet shoulder width apart, toes pointed slighlty out for most folks) as you think you would normally address the target. With empty hand, close yoiur eyes, relax, and go through your shot plan *(with eyes closed) until you think you are relaxed, stable, natural point of aim. Open your eyes and check- nare you pointing away from the target? In which direction?
Rotate your entire body for the correction you think you need. Repeat the eyes closed/hand point drill until you are pretty much pointing at target. Now repeat, with gun in hand.
Try that a few times in training and let me know how it goes. There are some more issues to think about, but getting comfortable NPA is the best starting point.
And yes, your "natural point of aim" will change day-day and during a match.
More on that later.
YEE HAW!
Great to hear from you again! maybe I'll toss in a "YEE-HAW" or two at the end; I don't know about that other stuff.
O.K., start with the basics: why do we give a rip about foot position? Will the proper Arthur Murray cha-cha instantly give us tens? Well, probably not. Here's what I think- let's start with what makes one foot position better than another.
- Comfort for shooting the match
- Somewhere close to natural point of aim, so as to not create undue side-stress during hold
- Given those two, all other things being equal, there is some evidence that a foot position-stance that engages the fewest, and best conditioned muscles, may give us a more stable hold area
O.K., a couple of socratic type questions for you to think about; in addition to focusing on the three desired outcomes above, you need to sort out
- Will the "best" (according to three principles above) foot position/stance for you be the same:
-- any given day?
-- over the course of changing (better or worse) physical condition?
-- during a match, as you fatigue?
- What role does "absolute foot position" (relative to firing/trarget line) play vs. "relative" (to each other) foot position play:
-- facing toward/away from taget stance vs. muscles used in shoulder
-- facing toward/away from target stance vs. NPA
-- Toes in vs. toes out vs comfort/stability
Anyhow, didn't mean to make it more complicated than it already is- the improtant thing is to focus on foot position as a component of your stance, which includes torso lean, hip position etc.
BUT
The most important thing is to fool around with it until you feel you have gotten "in the ballpark" in terms of COMFORT and NPA first.
And don't use the chalk too much . . . you're scaring the LEOs on the range!
Best advice for "organized fooling around" is this. Approach the firing line with gun unloaded. Assume what you think is a comfortable stance (feet shoulder width apart, toes pointed slighlty out for most folks) as you think you would normally address the target. With empty hand, close yoiur eyes, relax, and go through your shot plan *(with eyes closed) until you think you are relaxed, stable, natural point of aim. Open your eyes and check- nare you pointing away from the target? In which direction?
Rotate your entire body for the correction you think you need. Repeat the eyes closed/hand point drill until you are pretty much pointing at target. Now repeat, with gun in hand.
Try that a few times in training and let me know how it goes. There are some more issues to think about, but getting comfortable NPA is the best starting point.
And yes, your "natural point of aim" will change day-day and during a match.
More on that later.
YEE HAW!
-
Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Elliott:
Great to hear from you again! maybe I'll toss in a "YEE-HAW" or two at the end; I don't know about that other stuff.
O.K., start with the basics: why do we give a rip about foot position? Will the proper Arthur Murray cha-cha instantly give us tens? Well, probably not. Here's what I think- let's start with what makes one foot position better than another.
- Comfort for shooting the match
- Somewhere close to natural point of aim, so as to not create undue side-stress during hold
- Given those two, all other things being equal, there is some evidence that a foot position-stance that engages the fewest, and best conditioned muscles, may give us a more stable hold area
O.K., a couple of socratic type questions for you to think about; in addition to focusing on the three desired outcomes above, you need to sort out
- Will the "best" (according to three principles above) foot position/stance for you be the same:
-- any given day?
-- over the course of changing (better or worse) physical condition?
-- during a match, as you fatigue?
- What role does "absolute foot position" (relative to firing/trarget line) play vs. "relative" (to each other) foot position play:
-- facing toward/away from taget stance vs. muscles used in shoulder
-- facing toward/away from target stance vs. NPA
-- Toes in vs. toes out vs comfort/stability
Anyhow, didn't mean to make it more complicated than it already is- the improtant thing is to focus on foot position as a component of your stance, which includes torso lean, hip position etc.
BUT
The most important thing is to fool around with it until you feel you have gotten "in the ballpark" in terms of COMFORT and NPA first.
And don't use the chalk too much . . . you're scaring the LEOs on the range!
Best advice for "organized fooling around" is this. Approach the firing line with gun unloaded. Assume what you think is a comfortable stance (feet shoulder width apart, toes pointed slighlty out for most folks) as you think you would normally address the target. With empty hand, close yoiur eyes, relax, and go through your shot plan *(with eyes closed) until you think you are relaxed, stable, natural point of aim. Open your eyes and check- nare you pointing away from the target? In which direction?
Rotate your entire body for the correction you think you need. Repeat the eyes closed/hand point drill until you are pretty much pointing at target. Now repeat, with gun in hand.
Try that a few times in training and let me know how it goes. There are some more issues to think about, but getting comfortable NPA is the best starting point.
And yes, your "natural point of aim" will change day-day and during a match.
More on that later.
YEE HAW!
Great to hear from you again! maybe I'll toss in a "YEE-HAW" or two at the end; I don't know about that other stuff.
O.K., start with the basics: why do we give a rip about foot position? Will the proper Arthur Murray cha-cha instantly give us tens? Well, probably not. Here's what I think- let's start with what makes one foot position better than another.
- Comfort for shooting the match
- Somewhere close to natural point of aim, so as to not create undue side-stress during hold
- Given those two, all other things being equal, there is some evidence that a foot position-stance that engages the fewest, and best conditioned muscles, may give us a more stable hold area
O.K., a couple of socratic type questions for you to think about; in addition to focusing on the three desired outcomes above, you need to sort out
- Will the "best" (according to three principles above) foot position/stance for you be the same:
-- any given day?
-- over the course of changing (better or worse) physical condition?
-- during a match, as you fatigue?
- What role does "absolute foot position" (relative to firing/trarget line) play vs. "relative" (to each other) foot position play:
-- facing toward/away from taget stance vs. muscles used in shoulder
-- facing toward/away from target stance vs. NPA
-- Toes in vs. toes out vs comfort/stability
Anyhow, didn't mean to make it more complicated than it already is- the improtant thing is to focus on foot position as a component of your stance, which includes torso lean, hip position etc.
BUT
The most important thing is to fool around with it until you feel you have gotten "in the ballpark" in terms of COMFORT and NPA first.
And don't use the chalk too much . . . you're scaring the LEOs on the range!
Best advice for "organized fooling around" is this. Approach the firing line with gun unloaded. Assume what you think is a comfortable stance (feet shoulder width apart, toes pointed slighlty out for most folks) as you think you would normally address the target. With empty hand, close yoiur eyes, relax, and go through your shot plan *(with eyes closed) until you think you are relaxed, stable, natural point of aim. Open your eyes and check- nare you pointing away from the target? In which direction?
Rotate your entire body for the correction you think you need. Repeat the eyes closed/hand point drill until you are pretty much pointing at target. Now repeat, with gun in hand.
Try that a few times in training and let me know how it goes. There are some more issues to think about, but getting comfortable NPA is the best starting point.
And yes, your "natural point of aim" will change day-day and during a match.
More on that later.
YEE HAW!
Yep, a great exercise and one that I finally got through my head for 10M rifle. I was going crazy trying to make all the adjustments to the rifle and my stance until I followed the "close your eyes" and then see where you are. Do it repeatedly and you'll be surprised as to how well it works and wonder why you never thought of it yourself!Steve Swartz wrote:
Best advice for "organized fooling around" is this. Approach the firing line with gun unloaded. Assume what you think is a comfortable stance (feet shoulder width apart, toes pointed slighlty out for most folks) as you think you would normally address the target. With empty hand, close yoiur eyes, relax, and go through your shot plan *(with eyes closed) until you think you are relaxed, stable, natural point of aim. Open your eyes and check- nare you pointing away from the target? In which direction?
Rotate your entire body for the correction you think you need. Repeat the eyes closed/hand point drill until you are pretty much pointing at target. Now repeat, with gun in hand.
Try that a few times in training and let me know how it goes. There are some more issues to think about, but getting comfortable NPA is the best starting point.
Right on the nail Steve and as said in one of my other posts that many of the disciplines for pistol and rifle often intermingle.
~Phil
Elliott,
After a while of doing this you will find yourself walking up to the line looking down at your feet for a second or two and then looking up at the target with your pistol in hand and make a slight adjustment to your feet and start shooting. All thanks to muscle memory.
You absolutely need to know how to find your NPA. After a while you will find it easier and can tell just by looking down the sights at the target.
From a page out of Eric B's book do not over think it keep it simple and leave the chalk at home.
The problem I have seen with chalk is you are shooting along and you are doing good and decide to take a break. You walk away from the line site down for a few and when you come back to like you put your feet in the chalk markings you made and start shooting again and you find you are not shooting as good as when you stopped. There could be other factors but one could have been you did not realize that when you stopped the first time your feet had moved and we no longer in the feet marking you made when you started.
After a while of doing this you will find yourself walking up to the line looking down at your feet for a second or two and then looking up at the target with your pistol in hand and make a slight adjustment to your feet and start shooting. All thanks to muscle memory.
You absolutely need to know how to find your NPA. After a while you will find it easier and can tell just by looking down the sights at the target.
From a page out of Eric B's book do not over think it keep it simple and leave the chalk at home.
The problem I have seen with chalk is you are shooting along and you are doing good and decide to take a break. You walk away from the line site down for a few and when you come back to like you put your feet in the chalk markings you made and start shooting again and you find you are not shooting as good as when you stopped. There could be other factors but one could have been you did not realize that when you stopped the first time your feet had moved and we no longer in the feet marking you made when you started.
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2650 Plus
Foot position
Earlier posts have covered the essentials of achieveing a satisfactory stance , I would like to throw. a little sand in the gear box as follows; Ragnar Skanaker was a bit of a maverick in that he didn't pay much attention to where his feet were placed. He would just wander around stop and take his shot. Uaually a ten. I have heard recently that he can still shoot in the 560's and he is moving along into advanced age. He is still not a has been. OORAH for Ragnar. Good Shooting Bill Horton
Re: Foot position
Bill,2650 Plus wrote:Earlier posts have covered the essentials of achieveing a satisfactory stance , I would like to throw. a little sand in the gear box as follows; Ragnar Skanaker was a bit of a maverick in that he didn't pay much attention to where his feet were placed. He would just wander around stop and take his shot. Uaually a ten. I have heard recently that he can still shoot in the 560's and he is moving along into advanced age. He is still not a has been. OORAH for Ragnar. Good Shooting Bill Horton
From what I've seen of Ragnar, that is true. It does however merely illustrate that there are always exceptions to every rule. And just because he shot that way, doesn't make it right. The guy could for example have shot even better if he had perfected his body (feet) orientation - we'll never know.
Rob.