TargetTalk

Just curious if I'm thinking straight on this. I've been doing a lot of dry-firing lately, and I see a very consistent little twitch of the front sight to the right when the shot breaks. It's not much, and I thought I was imagining it for awhile. I'm talking probably 1~mm (my air gap is cut in half on the right side). It happens exactly when the shot breaks ~ no sooner and no later.

Is this from possibly having the trigger a touch too far out and not getting a perfect rearward pull? When watching my finger, it looks like a direct rearward motion. The other thought is that it could be grip related... I'm using a stock Med. grip, and my hand is a little bigger than that. I have something else on the way (don't really want to modify the stock/oem grip) ~ and I can feel a void in the very middle of my palm and the length (fingers to heel) is a bit too short. I'm not talking much here... but I'm also not talking about much of a deflection of the front sight blade either.

Thanks for any thought/opinion. This is on an LP10, FWIW.

Cheers,

Brian

ShootingAir.com

Brian M wrote:Is this from possibly having the trigger a touch too far out and not getting a perfect rearward pull?

I normally hesitate from offerring coaching advice at long distance. Without actually watching the shooter, even if you have the benefit of a Scatt/Rika/Noptel recording, there are just too many variables.

In this case however, providing that you are right handed, the problem is unlikely to be that the trigger is too far forward. If anything it sounds more likely to be too far back.

As I said though, long distance coaching can only offer theoretical advice, it could be many other things. Your trigger may be perfectly positioned.

If the muzzle is moving to the RIGHT that means that you are side-loading (pushing) against the trigger to the LEFT.

Immediately prior to the sear releasing the trigger forces, your wrist is cocking (balancing out the trigger twist) to the RIGHT. As soon as the sear breaks, the LEFTWARD force from the trigger finger is removed, and the RIGHTWARD compensating force of the wrist takes over.

The technique solution is to position your finger on the trigger so that you aren't pushing it to the left! Depending on where your finger is now, that could involve *either* moving the trigger forward, or to the back, or not at all.

Are you by any chance engaging the trigger primarily with the tip of your finger?

Of course, there is an obvious equipment-based solution to this problem . . . =8^)

Steve

Brian M wrote:The other thought is that it could be grip related... I'm using a stock Med. grip, and my hand is a little bigger than that. I have something else on the way (don't really want to modify the stock/oem grip) ~ and I can feel a void in the very middle of my palm and the length (fingers to heel) is a bit too short. I'm not talking much here... but I'm also not talking about much of a deflection of the front sight blade either.

It is easy to temporarily increase grip size using modeling clay or 'PlayDo' to see if there is any effect on your twitch.

Steve Swartz wrote:Are you by any chance engaging the trigger primarily with the tip of your finger?

Thinking about it, I would have said yes... but I took a couple pictures and it seems to be more of a no. I have the point (center-most part of my finger print) about dead center on the trigger shoe.



The above was with the pistol hanging down, my short first stage taken up and resting at the second stage.



The above photo is designed to show a little better my finger placement on the trigger.



This photo is to show that I have the trigger about as far forward as I'm comfortable moving it (unless others have pushed the holder off the end of the rod and not found negative issues). No weird twists or cants ~ I have the trigger facing as much dead forward as I can get.

The 50~60 dry-fire shots I did at lunch today had a slightly less perceptible movement, back to where I think I could be imagining it. I'm paying careful mind not to Focus on this anomaly, instead putting my focus on the front sight and just observing.

It's easy to pick on this kind of thing when dry-firing against a blank wall.... when I add a target, it would be the least of my concerns. :/ So I'm not even certain that it's worth the effort I (and you all) have already given. But thanks anyway, I appreciate the input. And don't worry, I'm not going to rush off and change Anything without good reason to compliment my documentation.

Cheers,

Brian

ShootingAir.com

The contact position on the pad of your first joint can make a real difference in shot release.

Try this:

1. Move your contact to the very tip of your finger, dry fire a bit and see what effect that has on the sights, then

2. Move the contact all the way to the first joint, dry fire and see what that does

Base on the experiment, make adjustments from your current trigger position in tiny increments until the twitch stops.

Tillman

Nice pics! Seems you have mine hand's type!
What grip size do you have?
I have M size, with long fingers, but i prefer picking the trigger close to the rear (touching overtravel screw), because i feel i can control it better.
I also use the old LP1 trigger style, thinner, and rounded on the sides: i feel like there is an edge on the sides of the latest trigger blade (as your own in pics).

From the pics, seems IMHO you are bit to much on the right side with your hand; do you not know anyone capable to check your hand-grip assemble?

If you want try something different, in my humble opinion, you can:
1. pick to the rear the trigger,
2. a bit down on vertical axis (seems to me you are pushing against the lower part of the trigger blade, not center ---> you must reset trigger weight because when you go down on the axis trigger doesn't pass probably the weight rules. Leverage rules.)
3. pick your inch and put more forward on the left side, and as nygord notes: http://www.nygordprecision.com/grips.htm
have the second segment of the fingers perpendicular to the bore

Brian,
Looking at your second photo more carefully, it seems to me that your fingers are wrapped way around the grip and the finger tips are pressing pressing on it. I think I see pink in the tip of your third finger, perhaps from pressing too hard. Grip pressure should be on the front strap and the finger tips should be free/relaxed.

Fred

Bryan, you might take a small adjustment on your trigger stop. Tighten it up about that thousandth of an inch that your sight is moving. And just a bit of information about grip. I have used the same grip as described above for years and have seen no need to change it , however Brian Zins has described his grip as using finger tip pressure so , if I understood him correctly, that mey be a good way to go. I cant see how the tips of the finger applying pressure to the grip would necessarily cause the problem you have described. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Fred Mannis wrote:Brian,
Looking at your second photo more carefully, it seems to me that your fingers are wrapped way around the grip and the finger tips are pressing pressing on it.

Keep in mind that I was holding the pistol at about a 35degree angle from the floor, and canted about 80 degrees to the right... ie, my grip was not normal.

But I agree anyway, the grip is too small for my hand and there is more pressure towards the first knuckle on my fingers than towards the middle knuckle. As mentioned in my initial post, I have another set of grips on order (Vitarbo, most likely in the process of being made right now). I think I'm going to just put down the LP10 for the next 2~3 weeks and continue working with my IZH46m. I now know what everyone means when they say "nose heavy", but my Izzy is perfectly configured for me currently.

I'll revisit this as needed when I get the new grips and an fitted to my hand. As I've been thinking about it today, there's just no sense in trying to troubleshoot something that's going to change in the near future.

Thanks for the comments all, I do appreciate them!

Cheers,

Brian

ShootingAir.com

Brian,

The problem is that the barrel is about 25 inches too short, and the stock needs to be much longer so you get get it firmly in your shoulder. Never should have gotten you that IZZY.

Brian,
Your post is interesting to me because I only get that kind of twitch when I am actually firing and not dry-firing. I somehow start anticipating the shot and try to make last second corrections and I twitch and the shot goes high right.

Dry-firing actually helps me keep this to a minimum. I cannot remember who posted this first but I use it, I try to envisage the front sight with a string tied to it. The drill is to pull the string straight to the rear so that the front sight is pulled through the rear sight keeping a proper sight picture the whole time, and of course, a good follow through.

Two suggestions:

1. A Bullseye shooter on the forum recommends "guiding the gun with the trigger." I think of this as more mental than physical but it does have the advantage of increasing the pressure on the trigger when on-target. It also will tend to reduce grabbing at the trigger.

2. I find that a "straight" pull is not necessarily what one thinks -- to me, the best "straight" pull feels like I am pulling more towards the top of the butt (rifle but whatever) than straight back. I have no idea whether either is straight and don't care -- I get less gun movement when I pull a bit "up."

Whatever works is what you need to focus on. The "book" is a good starting approach but experiment and find what works best for you.

Best,

Joe

I second Joe's thoughts. I was cursed with a jump to the right for years. I finally eliminated it by moving the trigger further to the rear, sticking my finger all the way in to slightly past the first joint and wrapping my finger around the trigger. It feels like I am pulling the trigger at about a 30 degree angle to the rear and right but it works on all my guns from the air pistol to the 45.

It can also be your other finger tips pressing on the gun and/or the thumb. Pay attention to all of the forces on the grip and make it as much front and rear as possible.

Also, removing the orthopedic grips made a huge difference in the 45, but didn't seem to affect the 22 or airgun.

Steve Turner