TargetTalk

Hi folks. After shooting alot with my old FWB I was thinking of buying a new pistol.

Ive looked alot of times at the Steyr LP10, and I find the grip very comfortable in my hands (somehow better than other pistols). With the ballbearing and electronic trigger comming up I want to buy one (didnt find it worth 1300 euro when its only a minor increase on the FWB).

Only thing im really worried about is the metalwork between the trigger and action (hope u know what I mean). It looks flimsy and gives me a scared feeling that whenever I would handle the pistol without care it could bend on that spot.

Do people here have any experience with that part bending?

(sorry for my bad english, im dutch).

Yours,

Warrie

I'm sure somebody has managed to 'bend' and LP-10, but I can't see how it would happen in regular use and even normal shipping. There's plenty of metal throughout the design. Its forrunner, the LP1, also does not seem to exhibit lack of material strength in any common location.

It's not like the pistol is new, there are thousands in service, I have never heard of anyone bending one, if anything its cast so it would most likely break which I have never heared of any one breaking the frame either.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an electronic version, that has been a rumour for many years.

If you want an electronic trigger, I think you should go for a Morinii. This one is very good and reliable.

The electronic trigger of the LP10 would be the very first electronic trigger of Steyr. Experience has shown that gun manufacturers aren't that good with electronic design and other electronic triggers waren't first time right.

The mechanical trigger of the LP10 didn't prevent this pistol of winning a lot of medals.

Jipe "experience has shown", not truly a fair statement, discounting something that hasn't been even available yet. The first generation of electronic triggers did have their problems but that was 20 something years ago, a lot has changed in in elecronic in those intervening years . I suspect if and when they have an electronic tirgger the design issues wont be a problem, manufacturing problems are a different story and those can and do happen to anyone at anytime.

Richard H wrote:Jipe "experience has shown", not truly a fair statement, discounting something that hasn't been even available yet.

You are right: is is just a guess. Actually what I fear is something like the Walther FP electronic trigger story: as all gun manufacturers, Steyr has probably very little knowledge of electronics => they will probably subcontract both the development of the electronic trigger unit and its manufacturing.

An electronic trigger is actually an electro-mechanical stuff = a mix of electronics and mechanics = the stuff the most prone to reliability problems.

Now, seen the evolution of electronics = everything moving to Asia, this won't ease the design process:
- finding a company willing to develop such a thing won't be easy. No major company will be interrested. It will probably be a small company.
- finding a company willing to produce it won't be easier seen the very limited quantities (the amount of Steyr AP produced is a very small quantity for the electronic industry).
- ensuring the quality of the production will also be pretty difficult (even big companies have problem with this, look at the electronic reliability issues that the automotive industry is facing).

Based on my experience (I am engineer in the electronic business) I expect as well design problems as production problems as quality control problems.

May be I am too pessimistic, but I do not want to be the beta tester of a new electronic trigger unit, therefore my conclusion:
- if I was willing to have an AP with electronic trigger, I would buy the one that has proven working/reliability = Morini.
- if I was willing to have a Steyr AP, I would buy the one that has proven working/reliability = the mechanical trigger one.

jipe wrote:You are right: is is just a guess. Actually what I fear is something like the Walther FP electronic trigger story: as all gun manufacturers, Steyr has probably very little knowledge of electronics => they will probably subcontract both the development of the electronic trigger unit and its manufacturing..

Thats what I figured you were talking about. I am an owner of a Walther FP with an electronic trigger that functions fine. A fair number were sold here in Canada, and some have claimed to have found the problem. the battery cover screw, its a little too long and if you tighten it too much it pushes on one of the components on the circuit board, breaking the solder joint as its all covered in epoxy its next to impossible to fix if this happens.

jipe wrote:An electronic trigger is actually an electro-mechanical stuff = a mix of electronics and mechanics = the stuff the most prone to reliability problems..

Morini seems to have managed.

jipe wrote:Now, seen the evolution of electronics = everything moving to Asia, this won't ease the design process:
- finding a company willing to develop such a thing won't be easy. No major company will be interrested. It will probably be a small company.
- finding a company willing to produce it won't be easier seen the very limited quantities (the amount of Steyr AP produced is a very small quantity for the electronic industry).
- ensuring the quality of the production will also be pretty difficult (even big companies have problem with this, look at the electronic reliability issues that the automotive industry is facing).

Again Morini has managed, they aren't that special that no one else ever in the world would be able to do it.

jipe wrote:Based on my experience (I am engineer in the electronic business) I expect as well design problems as production problems as quality control problems.

As a former Reliabilty Engineer and Quality Engineer, those are a given with everything new.. Electronics and electro-mechanical devices are far more reliable in general today as opposed to 20 plus years ago (which is what you are comparing it to).

jipe wrote:May be I am too pessimistic, but I do not want to be the beta tester of a new electronic trigger unit, therefore my conclusion:
- if I was willing to have an AP with electronic trigger, I would buy the one that has proven working/reliability = Morini.
- if I was willing to have a Steyr AP, I would buy the one that has proven working/reliability = the mechanical trigger one.

Well I hope everyone doesn't share this opinion or all the manufactures might as well just stop designing and making anything new. The only thing I expect is support, and from what I have seen from some of the new designs from both Match Guns and Walther peolpe are getting support. I suspect Steyr's support will be no different.

Richard H wrote: The only thing I expect is support, and from what I have seen from some of the new designs from both Match Guns and Walther peolpe are getting support. I suspect Steyr's support will be no different.

Really?!
The customer-support from Walther is about none-existent!
Remember the recent recall of AP-cylinders manufactured from 2000 - 2001 from Walther. And the very bad Walther electronic FP a few years back.

I am not able to imagine that you are not informed about those issues. So, why are you, contrary to your own knowledge, stating Walther is giving good support?
Walther just advice the customer NOT TO USE the unsafe AP cylinders.
Walther is not replacing the faulty cylinders. Customers have to buy new ones, no rebate given by Walther of europe, according to my knowledge.
(I have been informet here, that one dealer in the US, from private initiative and cost, are replacing some Walther-cylinder to guns bought from his shop. But that is a different matter).

Walther is renown for NOT standing behind their products.

And MatchGuns? Well some US-citizens clime they have got fair customer support from MatchGuns.
Some experiences here in europe are different...

Richard H wrote:

jipe wrote:]An electronic trigger is actually an electro-mechanical stuff = a mix of electronics and mechanics = the stuff the most prone to reliability problems..

Morini seems to have managed.

Yes, it OK on current products but it is not their first design and first one had problems.

Richard H wrote:As a former Reliabilty Engineer and Quality Engineer, those are a given with everything new.. Electronics and electro-mechanical devices are far more reliable in general today as opposed to 20 plus years ago (which is what you are comparing it to).

I am not retired, my experience is what's happening now for instance with electronics for the automotive industry and for quality control of electronic consumer products manufactured by chinese subcontractor, OEM and ODM where two production batches are never the same !

Richard H wrote:

jipe wrote:May be I am too pessimistic, but I do not want to be the beta tester of a new electronic trigger unit, therefore my conclusion:
- if I was willing to have an AP with electronic trigger, I would buy the one that has proven working/reliability = Morini.
- if I was willing to have a Steyr AP, I would buy the one that has proven working/reliability = the mechanical trigger one.

Well I hope everyone doesn't share this opinion or all the manufactures might as well just stop designing and making anything new.

Richard, I have the impression that you do not understand my statement: if Steyr is making a new AP without electronic trigger, I will trust them because this is their domain of expertise. Same for Morini: if Morini will make a new electronic trigger, I will also trust them because they learn/know how to do it.

My problem is for the electronic trigger on a Steyr AP that is a new technology domain for Steyr.

My experience shows that nothing replaces the experience you build with the first product you have on the market. You can make as many prototypes, alpha, beta... versions of the product, test batches, pre-production batches... there are always weak points remaining in your first of a kind product put on the market. The two companies you mention are perfect exemple of that: look at the problems of the first MG2, the first SSP (about this last one: when a couple of weeks ago I enquired about it to the official Walther representative in my country, he softly tried to make me buy a... GSP expert instead).

You're pushing hot air around - the existing Steyr prototypes have Morini electronics...

Me wrote:

Richard H wrote: The only thing I expect is support, and from what I have seen from some of the new designs from both Match Guns and Walther peolpe are getting support. I suspect Steyr's support will be no different.

Really?!
The customer-support from Walther is about none-existent!
Remember the recent recall of AP-cylinders manufactured from 2000 - 2001 from Walther. And the very bad Walther electronic FP a few years back.

I am not able to imagine that you are not informed about those issues. So, why are you, contrary to your own knowledge, stating Walther is giving good support?
Walther just advice the customer NOT TO USE the unsafe AP cylinders.
Walther is not replacing the faulty cylinders. Customers have to buy new ones, no rebate given by Walther of europe, according to my knowledge.
(I have been informet here, that one dealer in the US, from private initiative and cost, are replacing some Walther-cylinder to guns bought from his shop. But that is a different matter).

Walther is renown for NOT standing behind their products.

And MatchGuns? Well some US-citizens clime they have got fair customer support from MatchGuns.
Some experiences here in europe are different...

Well I'm in Canada and I can only speak to the service that has been given to those I know, your experiences maybe different.

Also you say " that some US citizens claim" insinuating that this is not true, why would they lie about getting service. On the other side there are some people that are whiners and could never be satisfied either.

Tycho wrote:You're pushing hot air around - the existing Steyr prototypes have Morini electronics...

Is this directed at me if so what's your point. I have not eluded to any knowledge with regards to Steyr's proto-types, designs nor manufacture. My post was in regards to the fact that I wouldn't go critizing something that isn't even available yet based upon what went on with Walther 20 years ago.

I hope it is a Morini trigger, when can I buy one ;)

Well Jipe, one problem is you make too many assumptions, I wish I was retired, I changed careers just a little over three years ago, having left the automotive industry for a nice government job. So I'm still very familiar with what goes on in the automotive industry (in North America, Europe and Asia).

I understand your statements, and using your logic nothing new would ever have been invented because people and companies would only stick to what they know based on what they've done in the past.

Will there be growing pains with new designs most certainly, people have also come to have unreal expectation too. We now live in a world where everyone wants what they want now, and anything short of that sends them over the edge.

I for one am an yearlt adopter of many new things, some times not the first tier but usually the second.

I guess we just disagree.

Richard, why do you make me feel like I never want to open TargetTalk forum again? Please tone down your aggressive attitude, its not nice.

Br,
Ralf

Its just called a discussion. I think you're reading a little more into my posts than is there. I am not mad or angry. I just disagree with Jipe's point, which he is entitled to. Nor am with your post, unfortunately on forums people read the words as they are written, without the para-language that goes along with them they can easily be mis inturpreted. Which I'm also guilty of, I did take Jipes comment as being aa little condesecnding , in the form that I'm retired, thus old, and don't know what I'm talking about, because I'm not young like him, of which none of those facts are true.

There is no name calling, I've had many discussion in the past with Jipe, and agree with many of his post. On this one I disagree.

I think sometimes everyone needs to remember that English is not everyone's first langauge and that sometimes what you think is insulting , is not the actual context.

I will admit that sometimes Richard H is sarcastic in a funny way, he has good knowledgeable discussion . But in this thread, I don't see anything agressive at all by Richard H, if, any one was agressive it was Jipe, but not really, not in a matter I would be concerned about.

Since I am here at the Beijing World Cup, I am speaking with a lot of people whom English is noot their first language and sometimes you really have to twist meanings and pronounciations to understand what is being said.

This is a problem with Chinese speakers often here . When I understand something perfectly in American English, I find that Chinese have learned different meanings for words. Like the words boss, manager, director, leader, chief, or department head. I could use all of these words interchangeabley for the same person yet the Chinese assign different meanings or connations to this words. Boss is something negative that you should never call someone you like, and the Chinese you would never call soemone a director who is a manager or vice versa.

But of course British English and American English have their word differences but not so striking.

I didn't take Jipe's comments as offensive either, I've had many discusions with him and he seems to be a good guy with lots of good ideas and discussion points.

We seem to live in a society now where people take offense to just about anything. I fear lively debate is going to die, we will all just have to sit around and agree with everything that is said for fear of ruffling someones feather's

. . . try working on a University campus . . .

=8^(

Steve

Richard H wrote:I fear lively debate is going to die, we will all just have to sit around and agree with everything that is said for fear of ruffling someones feather's

No we won't ;-)

David Levene wrote:
No we won't ;-)

No, I won´t.
If someone i s stating a product is very good, and I, or more of my clubmates, have less farvorable experiences with said product/manufacturer, then I will keep the right to inform anyone, who might be interested, about the bare facts.
Walther do not have a polecy of good customer support.
I´ll repeat that: Carl Walther, of Ulm, Germany, is not known for good customer support.
Nuff said.