TargetTalk

hi all,

i had been working on my gripping for the past few weeks. I originally had a tendency to clench at the grip as the match/training progresses. Usually, to stabilise the sights, i exert extra force upon my middle finger, so that my thumb and middle finger are the main force acting upon the grip. however, the problem with this is that, although the sights are indeed more stable than before, i got more and more bouts of chicken finger, where i could not bring my over-tensed index finger to pull the trigger.

Currently, i am pursuing a hold, in which the 4th finger and the pinky exert the main force on the grip, while "cupping" the grip with the edge of my palm, and with the piece of muscle below the thumb. this allows me to leave my middle finger and index finger in a more relaxed state, reducing muscle tension, and in doing so, reduces the probability of chicken finger happening.

so far, it has work fine, but there lies a slight insecurity within me, that i'm not holding onto the grip firm enough, (as my grip around the middle finger region is relatively loose).

can anyone share with me the advantages and disadvantages of this grip stance?

Concerning grip pressure: can you hold your arm and/or hand steady without using great muscule tension?

Is it possible to hold the pistol steady with a moderate pressure?

Would it be possible to hold the pistol with your strongest fingers, or all the fingers with a firm grip; and allow the do that more consistently for an entire match.

Could a firm grip allow the trigger finger to move more easily rather than trying to squeeze the sap out of the wood?

Are you thinking too much about the grip, and not enough aobut the sight alignment?

I believe Pete S. has done a good job of covering most of the bases.The grip only has to be firm enough to prevent the pistol from slipping due to the almost non existing recoil. For more important is natural sight allignment, Trigger finger placement that allow steadily increasing pressure and does not cause the sight to move out of allignment, And a consistant pressure from shot to shot. Once you find a correct grip that works for you, dont change a thing without good cause. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Lets have a look at the anatomical base:
http://www.bartleby.com/107/125.html

The above link points to an on-line anatomy, here already to the section called "muscles of the forearm"

Relevant for our discussion is the separation into the so-called "superficial group of muscles" and the "inner/deep group of muscles", depicted by the
figures 414 (superficial) and 415 (deep) respectively.

Regarding the actions "closing the grip" and "releasing the shot" two muscles play the prominent role:
Closing the grip : flexor digitorum sublimis (you can feel its action by putting the fingers of the other hand on the gripping forearm near the elbow) releasing the shot : flexor digitorum profundus (this you cannot feel by just touching the forearm)

Interesting is the common pattern of both:
They both end in tendons going to the four fingers respectively - because of this one needs considerable practice to move one finger more or less isolated/independent from the others.

To make it worse: releasing of the shot needs involvement of consecutive actions of the 2 flexors:

After the Flexor sublimis has bent the second phalanx, the Flexor profundus flexes the terminal one; but
it cannot do so until after the contraction of the superficial muscle

(described in the paragraph labelled "action")

Therefore one would first grip and then shoot...

When it comes to decide whether one should exert more force with the middle finger or the ringfinger/pinkie pair: extend the not used ones and
find out where you have more control over the gun when middle finger extended and ringfinger/pinkie gripping or the other way round.

Now to "chicken finger": in the light of the above description "chicken finger" means that the shooter does not perceive the different "actuators"
at work and thus does not exercises appropriate control - grip with the flexor sublimis and shoot with the flexor profundus.
Above I did say that one cannot feel the action of the flexor d. profundus:
true for touching the outside of the respective forearm **but**
wrong for trained propioception.
The sensors here are the so-called neurotendinous spindles or golgi organs. Its signals are usually "drowned" by the normal "noise" of the mind,
meaning they slip your attention - but nonetheless they are present: Even in the dark without optical information one usually knows whether one's hand is closed or open. And a shooter aware of his actuators knows without looking if his index finger position would be before or just after the shot.

This thread is therefore closely but maybe unexpectedly connected to the "silencing the mind" one in the shooters lounge.

Asa,
That is a great description of the anatomy of the gripping, and trigger release process. I have to spend more time identifying the state of my flexor digitorum profundus.

Fred

PETE S wrote:Concerning grip pressure: can you hold your arm and/or hand steady without using great muscule tension?

Is it possible to hold the pistol steady with a moderate pressure?

Would it be possible to hold the pistol with your strongest fingers, or all the fingers with a firm grip; and allow the do that more consistently for an entire match.

Could a firm grip allow the trigger finger to move more easily rather than trying to squeeze the sap out of the wood?

Are you thinking too much about the grip, and not enough aobut the sight alignment?

are these questions, or are these checkpoints for me to follow during the shot process?

shall try to answer them anyway.
1) i tend to use alot of muscle tension to sort of "stabilise" the motion, to reduce the extent of "swaying sights", where the movement of the sights tend to overshot the aiming area, during settling.

to answer the rest, i need to post another question. do you hold on to the grip, without letting go, for continuous shots, or do you let go of your grip after every few shots? Currently, i hold on to the grip, without letting go, for more than 30 shots. everything in between is just shoot and reload. I guess fatigue may be a reason why i am exerting more and more force upon the grip as the match progress.

and with reference to ASA's reply, since the tendon for gripping and pulling of trigger affects 4 fingers, and because of this, it is very hard to make sure that only 1 finger move independently, do i have to leave a "buffer" middle finger in between?
I use to find it hard to make sure that my other fingers don't move along with the index finger during trigger pull.

donthc wrote:1) i tend to use alot of muscle tension to sort of "stabilise" the motion, to reduce the extent of "swaying sights", where the movement of the sights tend to overshot the aiming area, during settling.

Some months ago I watched a report on the television regarding the difference between amateur athletes and olympic level athletes - the sport was table tennis.

Apart from the usual suspects such as swiftness, agility, training effort and the like the key element concerning your above statement was:

If a low-level athlete and a high level athlete perform the same movements, the high-level one uses less force and enervates less muscles than the other athlete.

So, with a lot of muscle tension one can compensate an unstable stance or an unsusual position (such as holding a gun still) but this is only good for a couple of shots - then fatigue and exhaustion take their toll.

From my experience: I do not have the time to practice FP as often as I would want to. As a result, due to lack of enough exposure to these special conditions I need a longer adaption phase during which I get used again to flex only the muscles needed.
Another way of saying the same: I have not invested enough effort to establish a lasting pattern-of-movement for FP in my mortor cortex. I compensate this lack with muscle tension until I am used to the conditions again.

Regarding isolation of index finger movement there is only one solution: practice, practice and then.. practice again.

In terms of sensation:

• The shot is most certainly the proof of the pudding - but the sensation of the shot masks a lot of the involved actions.

• Dry-firing removes this sensation and enables the shooter to perceive (and in the wake of perception hopefully to get rid of) more of the otherwise missed actions.

• Mental training removes the gun from the hands and enables to establish a pattern-of-movement. But because one can establish easily something wrong it is vital that the imagination is as close as possible to the reality

My questions were indeeded to raise some points. I think I have the correct answers but have often been corrected.

Consider that people learn to play the piano and other musical instruments which require each finger to move independently. But many activities such as using a shovel are best performed with all the fingers working together to grip the shovel.

My recommendation is that you use a "reasonable" grip presssure and hold with all your good fingers. "Reasonable" may be firmer for some people, softer for others. Not some extremely instense pressure because my opinion is that an extremely tight grip makes it more difficult to move the trigger finger independently. It is also very difficult to hold that extremely tight grip consistently through the match. Firm might work well for you.

Concerning the number of fingers. My thinking is that it is the amount of mental energy you are trying to use. Hold with two fingers, not with a third finger, and move another finger independently and oh yeah, don't do anythng with your thumb, wrist, forearm muscles...

Lay your hand on a table. Relax. Now move just the trigger finger. What happens?

Currently, i hold on to the grip, without letting go, for more than 30 shots. everything in between is just shoot and reload. I guess fatigue may be a reason why i am exerting more and more force upon the grip as the match progress.

It is also very difficult to hold that extremely tight grip consistently through the match. Firm might work well for you.

It's a long match. Only use the energy necessary to perform. Relax during the intervals. This includes all aspects; eyes, mind, grip, stance, etc. When the next shot/string comes up, then exert the force needed. Just as you would allow the pistol to come down from the target, allow the rest of you to come down from the focus and tenseness.

Moving fingers independently is difficult at first, so don't expect it to be something immediately learned. It isn't like reading a fact and knowing it from then on. It is something that will gradually improve, if you train for it. As to the use of all your fingers, that will be a personal choice as you gain experience, but I would start by working with all of the others and isolating the index. Do exercises all the time. Hold your empty hand in the gripping position and watch and move the index finger by itself. Do this with varying tension in the rest of the fingers.

Maybe even get an exercise ball or grip trainer, but remember to work the fingers such that the trigger finger is isolated. While driving, grip the steering wheel with all but the index and work the index independently.

One more thought:

The more of the gripping force that you can exert in line with the bore, the better. If your gripping force changes through the match and any of it is in the lateral plane, it can affect your shots laterally. Try to apply your grip such that small variations don't change your sight alignment. Try this during dry firing:

Take your stance, come up into position and observe your sights. Now vary your grip pressure and see if you can keep the sights aligned with slight changes. Now, hold your grip steady and apply some trigger pressure. Again, work toward a stable sight alignment without involving any wrist correction.

A final thought:

If your first shot is always good, then make all the shots you can, another first shot. If this includes totally setting the pistol down and regripping every opportunity, then so be it. I know of at least one 2650+ BE shooter that does just that for every slow fire shot.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

PETE S wrote:Lay your hand on a table. Relax. Now move just the trigger finger. What happens?

Thanks to all for clarifying my doubts. been having this problem with my gripping for months.

but i would like to point out that practicing trigger movement with an empty hand isn't the same as doing dry firing. Most of the tension are amplified by the added effort of pulling the trigger pressure, which is not negligible, as when you practice with an empty hand. I am able to move my index finger independently, with "perfect triggering action", when there isn't any gun attached to my hand, and therefore zero trigger resistance force :)

practicing trigger action with a gun is another matter all together. :(.

donthc wrote:..but i would like to point out that practicing trigger movement with an empty hand isn't the same as doing dry firing...

..and neither is dry-firing the same as really shooting.

For this reason I used earlier the sequential (training) approach in decreasing sensation: Shooting->dry-firing->mental training

Mental training removes all hustle and bustle (as Sibyl Trelawny would probably put it) and leaves nothing but the pure mental view on the process itself. If this view/imagination is strong enough (and has a factual basis) then the carpenter effect kicks in and prepares by so-called muscular micro-contractions an appropriate pattern-of-movement that paves the way for the proper shot. (This explanation stems from the bible of sports science in Germany, Weineck, "Optimales Training")

(BTW: some people like mental training others not at all - guess what fraction I belong to..)

I use for the following the way my Steyr LP10 trigger is adjusted:

Overcoming the first stage is a way of less than 1 centimeter - and it is not that spectacular. The real bit however is the effort to overcome the remaining second stage of the trigger. And at this point there is no movement visible any more. Only perceivable is/should be the proper exertion of force.

Once one has learned to identify this stage, one can (more or less easily) unlearn bad habits - such as moving parts of the hand/thumb/wrist/forearm that should not move and better kept constant.
This "unlearning" is less costly when all the distracting sensations are removed. If nothing but overcoming the second stage is left it is easier to feel what other unwanted movements take place. And, as Yogi Berra remarked so wisely: "You can observe a lot by just watching"..

The usual recommendation is to precede a mental training session with a a relaxation exercise (quite widespread is autogenous training) in order to free the mind. - And you may have guessed it: Yes, mental training is hard work and full concentration is quite exhausting if one seriously tries