TargetTalk

I have problem shooting AP, I shoot many shots in 2 o'clock. I am left handed shooter and I have read books trying to find out what happends when shot breaks. That problem is well documentet for right handed shooter but I havent found what that means for left handed shooter. Does anyone have any idea what would be the problem? I have picture attached about target.

I'm a lefty, and usually that's a wrist twitch during the shot. Make sure you're not exerting much pressure with the pinky finger, that seems to trigger it for me.

H.

If you want to believe hte books, just resverse the direction for a right handed shooter. If the book says this is what is happening high and left, that is what you are doing.


But, if you are really paying attention to your technique, really watching your sights at the "moment of truth" as your trigger finger is moving to squeeze the trigger, you must see a difference between shots that are high-right and those that are solid tens.

You should be able to see or feel some difference in your technique leading up to those shoots that are the solid ten ring and those that are not solid ten ring. Concentrate on performing the technique (postive mental approach) that results in the ten.

As a baseline, consider that any "physics" effects are negligable.

It's something *you* are doing differently.

Not to be "short" about it- but this will apply to developing your technique, well, forever- if you are really, really, really paying attention to the important stuff you will be able to observe exactly what you are doing differently for those shots.

Sorry to sound like an old grouch.

But frankly, there is no way in h*&l that any outsider (except maybe for a highly trained coach with Rika/Scatt/Noptel package; and even then not always) that an outsider is going to be able to tell you what you are doing differently when you make those "errors."

Again, my apologies.

I'm not trying to be harsh, just realistic.

Learning what you should be paying attention to, and learning how to tell whether or not you are executing the proper behaviors properly is probably the most important skill you can develop.

And you will develop an *intensity of focus* in monitoring/executing your behaviors along the way. Bonus!

Just my sort of humble opinion . . .

Steve

p.s. You should be focusing on what to do RIGHT not analyzing what you might be doing "wrong."

This might be subtle; but it is much more than a "distinction without a difference."

Steve

Steve,

Thanks for bring up to focus on what you are doing correct.

By doing this you will find out that you will spend all of your energy and focus on how you shoot 10's and you will forget about the other shots because they will go away. Think positive....my dad would always tell me.."positive mental attitude" It took me years to really understand this or use it.

Shooting is a prime example of were a positive mental attitude is very important. Shooting is a very mental sport. When you start to get to a certain level your muscle memory has everything under control and it is up to the space between your ear plugs to do the rest.

If you think you can do it then you can. Visualize yourself on the podium at the national championships or the Olympics. Do this enough and you can get there.

The mind is very powerful you just need to trust yourself and not limit yourself by thinking there is a limit for your abilities.

Sorry, but the recommendations in this thread so far are complete copout.


There's a difference between mental and technical errors. The former causes high variance in results, while the latter is manifested as repeatable errors that share common traits. No amount of positive thinking will fix your errors in technique, and no amount of analysis of technique will make you mentally ready for a match.

Back to the topic:
The throws to the right for a left-handed person may be caused by (but not limited to) the following:
1) In your relaxed aiming the cant is at CCW angle to the vertical, i.e. the relaxed hold is a little "wrist-up". If you normally have to force yourself to keep the sights horizontal to prevent the cant, slight rotation of the wrist during the shot will put it to the right.

2) If you stand too sideways to the target , the NPA will drift to the right if you start slouching the left shoulder. As you keep aiming at the target, your whole arm may jerk in the direction of the NPA. This type of error mostly starts happening if you shoot with a heavy pistol and get tired. Also it is very easy to see when the rear sight moves during the shot release.

3) Pushing the trigger - this one is pretty obvious.

To further diagnose, shoot on the back of the target and see if the shots end up where you call them.

And, it is not possible that the 2 o´clock is the right ones and the 10´s are wrong? Just because it is a 10 does not make it good.

Kent

Now, THAT is a astute statement - because IMEx flyers inside/high are quite rare, except when I do something really strange, like pushing my shoulder somewhere else. And I think Steve is right, too - if you don't see THAT, you're either closing your eyes or doing something completely different in your stance.

There might not be any problem at all. Try adjusting your sights to move the point of impact down and to the left, so that the center of your 10-shot groups is on the 10-ring, and see if the problem doesn't go away.

Regards,

Al B.

I can tell how I deal with shooting AP
Today I shoot 5 times 60 shoot, 10 on each target. I never change the sight, very important! When the day is over I spread the targets out on the floor in the right order and sit in front of them and try to figure out a pattern. THEN I make changes and start fresh next day.
Do some warm up before starting, the first 10 shoot will be irregular.
See if you tend to move the hits during a match. Can be useful to know in a match.
See that if you had changed the sights by 2 clicks after third target you may had better results on the fourth target but less on the fifth and so on.
I think that how you handle the trigger is the most important and next how the grip is. Lift your head the same all the time and forget about where your feet are just as long as it feels right.

Kent

Before I assume too much, let me ask a question. Do you know when you have made the bad (out of group) shots without looking at the target? In other words, can you call your shot or know that it is not good at the moment of release?

If you can, then examine the differences in feel and technique between the bad and good shots. Then, concentrate on the making all your shots feel like the good ones in a positive way.

Avoid too much analysis. In fact, if you actually know that a shot will be bad just before or as it fires, learn to stop, put the pistol down, and start over.

Now I have to go practice my own advice.

. . . on the other hand, go get a copy of the AMU "wheel of misfortune" and it will tell you all about thumbing, wristing, punching, pulling, poking, etc. etc. . . .

Three years from now you will post the same question.

We'll chat about it again at that time.

Steve Swartz

That "wheel of misfortune" never made any sense to me. A shot landing up not in 10 may be caused by a ton of factors (and their combinations).

And yet this diagram is not from Chet Skinner (I think), but in AMU manual itself! I think it is in also in some NRA materials and I see its variations on ranges.

Is there anyone here that found that thing helpful at all?

I believe- I heard this from someone else- never verified- that the wheel was developed for *coaches* [not shooters].

A coach with limited experience needs a tool like "the wheel" to help them diagnose potential problems.

I don't think it was ever intended to be used as a substitute for experience, observation, adn discussion with the shooter though- as in looking at targets as they came back from downrange, refer to your cheat sheet, and wisely suggest to the shooter "you might be thumbing those shots" then walking away.

The problem is YOU CAN'T PROPERLY DIAGNOSE A TECHNIQUE ERROR JUST BY LOOKING AT A TARGET!

All you can do is throw a bunch of NEGATIVE suggestions at a shooter who will then think about all the things they could be doing wrong . . .

. . . by suggesting that tehy could be holding their shoulder wrong, or have their feet in the wrong position, or are changing their grip between shots etc. etc. we aren't doing them any favors. We are entering them on the hanster wheel of mediocrity.

Yeah, I kinda like that.

"Hamster Wheel of Mediocrity" = cycle of negative analysis and reinforcement.

Steve

Steve Swartz wrote:YOU CAN'T PROPERLY DIAGNOSE A TECHNIQUE ERROR JUST BY LOOKING AT A TARGET!

Steve, your book isn't going to be very long if you write things like that.

It's too long to be the title but too short to be a chapter. It is however the truth.

Steve Swartz wrote:"Hamster Wheel of Mediocrity" = cycle of negative analysis and reinforcement.

Wheel of Fortune (Telling) = Pure guesswork

Hmmmm . . . perhaps the "Whell of Misfortune" was really an "inside joke" at the AMU that got out of hand?

I wouldn't put it past the Master Shooters of Yore . . . =8^)

Steve

["Here, kid, use this to help your training and come back when you break 2600!" Haw Haw]

Reinhamre wrote:And, it is not possible that the 2 o´clock is the right ones and the 10´s are wrong? Just because it is a 10 does not make it good.

Kent

That is a very valid point and highlights why online coaching / assessment is impossible to do.

What you as a shooter needs to do is really watch the sights and see which shots were technically great shots. Those that the gun doesn't move and you have great follow through in exactly the same place. When you get those you'll know. The other shots will be different for whatever reason, but the answer is to reproduce the good ones and dismiss the poor.

Rob.

The major problem with the wheel of misfortune is the major assumption it makes which is the shooter is aiming at the middle of the target. Which usually isn't the case.

As for the OP's problem the easiest place to start is probably on an electronic trainer. Then have the trace analyzed by someone wh knows what they are looking at. You can't tell what the problem is from looking at a target, the target basically only gives you a clue that something is most likely wrong.

I had a similar problem I'd have a nice group deep 9 and 10's then there would be another group in the 8 ring. Everything seemed fine, but under closer scrutiny I found that is was twisting at the waist. Stopped twisting at the waist and that problem went away (to be replaced by something else after all it is shooting).