TargetTalk

Benefits of aerobic training are known among shooters. Could weight training also be benefical to pistolshooter? Of cource training methods of powerlifter maybe not right for shooter but what kind of training might be?

I have not seen very much written on the subject of weight training and shooting. The most extensive references I have come across are in the original editions of "Position Rifle Shooting" by Bill Pullum & Frank Hanenkrat. To summarise what they say:

Weightlifting can play a part in supplemental conditioning but should be carefully integrated with the rest of the training programme. Training to increase muscle bulk (specific conditioning) relies on working te muscle hard and then working it again inside the recovery period. The muscular tension induced by this technique could well interfere with other element sof the training programme.

So, it would appear that light workouts with weights should be OK, but if you want to try anything more specific you should seek advice to ensure that it is properly integrated with other aspects of your training.

jer wrote:Benefits of aerobic training are known among shooters. Could weight training also be benefical to pistolshooter? Of cource training methods of powerlifter maybe not right for shooter but what kind of training might be?

Some good stuff here: http://www.pistol.org.au/Coaching/Articles.php

If "Weightlifting" = "Physical Therapy" then yes.

High rep, low weight = Range Of Motion + Fine Motor Control Good.

Strength = Bad.

IMNSHO

Steve Swartz

[It is a "truism" that there is a tradeoff in resistance training between burst strength (fast twitch fibers) and fine motor control/endurance (slow twitch fibers). Choose one or the other; you can't have both (without banned chemicals). I'm not saying the "truisim" is exactly or even specifically "true;" just that it has indeed been demonstrated in reality over a large number of trials and both casual and laboratory observation. You've got to focus on one or the other during any given training period. Sorry.)

I consider weight training to be essential to develope a really still hold. Type of weights is critical to sucess. If I could shoot a ten with free weights thats what I would use. Since I can't I only use the pistols that I am firing at the time. Most of us call that dry firing. IMHO you cannot do too much of this training method. The major advantage of dry firing is that even the smallest error can be hidden in recoil and muzzle blast yet all are perfectly visible while dry firing. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Steve Swartz wrote:If "Weightlifting" = "Physical Therapy" then yes.

High rep, low weight = Range Of Motion + Fine Motor Control Good.

Strength = Bad.

IMNSHO

Steve Swartz

[It is a "truism" that there is a tradeoff in resistance training between burst strength (fast twitch fibers) and fine motor control/endurance (slow twitch fibers). Choose one or the other; you can't have both (without banned chemicals). I'm not saying the "truisim" is exactly or even specifically "true;" just that it has indeed been demonstrated in reality over a large number of trials and both casual and laboratory observation. You've got to focus on one or the other during any given training period. Sorry.)

I agree for the most part, but some athletes may require some basic strength training, it's dependent on the athlete. If you do require strength development do it early in your training cycle, you don't want to be doing it near the competition phase. What you really don't want is hypertrophy (big muscles).

Musclular strength and endurance are what a shooter needs. Proper conditioning can also help lessen the possibility of injury as well.

Have a look at www.targetshooting.ca which has some good information on the type of exercises and weights to use to assist a pistol shooter. Alexander Yur'yev's famous book (title espaces me but I have a copy at home) explains a lot about which muscles to develop and how much. I think the NRA used to sell it in USA so you might still be able to pick up a copy.
Colin

A good and important topic.
A pistol shooter has no direct benefit of great muscle strength. However, as was pointed out in some of the replies, stamina is quite paramount.

I have been advised by the Finnish pistol coaches to use small weights only: 1kg is sufficient as a pistol weights little more than that. This will build enough stamina without unduly building up muscle mass.
The "optimum" would be to train with the actual weight, i.e. with the pistol. This you can do at home but not in a gym...

Also Paul Leatherdale's book had some advice on this topic.

Basic moves would include up-down to build the stamina for lifting the pistol to the shooting stance; holding; and some training for the wrists, as well, to ensure there's little movement of the wrist due to the "unfamiliar" weight of the pistol.
I have found a whatchamacallit wrist excercise thingy useful. You know, a little V shaped gimmick which you squeeze. Some do this with a rubber or tennis ball. It also trains you in squeezing (holding) with the wrist, not the arm muscles which should be slack when shooting.

- Larry

Richard H wrote:

Steve Swartz wrote:If "Weightlifting" = "Physical Therapy" then yes.

High rep, low weight = Range Of Motion + Fine Motor Control Good.

Strength = Bad.

IMNSHO

Steve Swartz

[It is a "truism" that there is a tradeoff in resistance training between burst strength (fast twitch fibers) and fine motor control/endurance (slow twitch fibers). Choose one or the other; you can't have both (without banned chemicals). I'm not saying the "truisim" is exactly or even specifically "true;" just that it has indeed been demonstrated in reality over a large number of trials and both casual and laboratory observation. You've got to focus on one or the other during any given training period. Sorry.)

I agree for the most part, but some athletes may require some basic strength training, it's dependent on the athlete. If you do require strength development do it early in your training cycle, you don't want to be doing it near the competition phase. What you really don't want is hypertrophy (big muscles).

Musclular strength and endurance are what a shooter needs. Proper conditioning can also help lessen the possibility of injury as well.

I have to mostly agree with Richard. Sorry Steve. ;-)

I am not a naturally strong person, and I am blessed with long arms which are good for some sports but not for pistol shooting. Anyway, throughout my precision pistol shooting career, I find my better performances occur when I am 1) stronger and 2) well-conditioned.

Clearly, one needs a certain amount of brute strength to simply raise and hold a pistol, at least 80 times, without your hold coming apart.

Secondly, fatigue becomes an issue, at some point. It may be an issue in one course of fire, but what happens when you shoot 2 or 3 events in the same day at a local match?

What kind of training to do? Well, that depends. Isotonic training is what we typically see. However, I tend to believe that isometric training is more beneficial for a shooter.

Finally, I've read that a person's ratio of fast-twitch to slow-twitch muscle fibers is genetically programmed. However, I've also read that continuous training of a particular type, e.g. explosive movements, causes the muscles involved to develop with a higher ratio of fast-twitch fibers. I have no idea if this is true or not.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

Stan

Many are afraid of big muscles, but I can't understand why. Brute strength combined with a good aerobic capacity is very good for shooting. Now big muacles and great strength is not always the same thing, but I belivie that it's good to be strong. If person A is very strong and person B is weaker but they have all other aspects of their bodies in common, then person A will have the biggest stamina since his using less of his total capacity to perform a certain task than person B.
I'm far from a bodybuilder, but I'm rather strong with som bulk on my arms, and with some areobic capacity left in my body since my more active days, wich I support with long walks and bike rides, and I can say that when I'm fresh in the head and have eaten well, I have a superhold when shooting air pistol. Sometimes the pistol is rocksteady during 3-5 seconds and I'm 100% sure that 's it going to be a ten. When I'm competing and get tired thats change, but I'm sure that if I was given the time to train my body the way I used to, that would change.
But I have discovered that this is not the most important part of shooting. Many have said this before, and now I learned it myself by trail and error, but you can have quite a bit of movement in the gun and hand and still shoot a ten, as long as you align the sights, focus at the front sight and squese the trigger gently.

There is no point to be afraid of big muscles. As a former powerlifter I can assure you, big muscles just dont appear. You need so much dedication and motivation to get big muscles that I can promise you dont get them.

Years ago when I lifted weights, I remember I had really good hold, just put the gun there and it was standing below target.Those days I shot with pistol just occasionally and did not train shooting actively. Now I train shooting actively but havent lifted weights in years. I think I try what happends if I start moderate weight lifting. Basic movements squat, press, military press and chins and abs ofcourse. In a couple of months I will see what happends.

Well, different bodies react differently on training, and some people get muscles very easy, while others have to train very hard to get them. But that's beside the point.
Nowadays I train with a rubber band for my shoulders and back, and with my body for the rest of the body, with pushups and so on, besides the walks and bikerides. I have started that rather recently, but it has already done me very good.

I absolutely depend on weightlifiting for my hold. The idea is to develop jjust a little strength margin so your arm doesn't get tired. Heavy weights are no good because you distort the arm position to hold it. What you want is a true extension of the arm exactly as you shoot. Only a weight you can hold pefectly is useful. In my case I began with two pounds and over a few years have worked up to five. I started with 15 second holds. I now do an ultra slow lift to the firing position, hold for thirty seconds, then slow lift over the head, stretch behind a little bit for five seconds or so, then come down slowly to the firing point again and hold for another ten seconds, then slowly down. Alternate arms one rep each. 12 reps each side total.

Beause I am well within my strength, there is no grunting and trembling. And although I am not that good a shot, holding the gun is not an issue. At least I can concentrate on all the other stuff without worrying about getting tired.

I shoot Sport, and fatigue shows up first in the rapid fire stage. For this I do the normal sport routine, three seconds up seven seconds down, with a four pound weight (for years I used two and then three). Once again the goal is to make it really easy and the arm really straight and the lift really smooth. Instead of doing five reps like a normal string, do six or seven if you can. Do at least six sets each arm, to be sure of the six strings in competition.

The main idea is the best position you can get, and no more weight than you can acheive that position. Then, a couple extra pounds and a few more reps than a competition, and you have a strength margin which protects you from fatigue.

Also grippers for the grip. Not too stiff, and hold for thirty seconds with the
arm in a good firing postion. People talkabout firm grip. If your hand is really strong, a very comfortable gentle squeeze can also be very "firm" indeed.

And lots of typing on the 'net to keep your fingers from getting stiff:)

My shooting falls apart if I don't do these things at least twice a week. Three times is better.

Best Regards,

Gordon

The *key* thing to remember is that "improving the hold" is so far down on the list of priorities that by the time you are aware of it, it doesn't matter any more (because you have spent the last 5 years or so lifting the gun so many times it is irrelevant).

Exceptions: Of course there are exceptions! If you are "disabled" or so far off the bell curve you can't extend your arm with 1.5 lbs in your hand for 5 seconds or so; or in any case where injury has made that a difficult proposition etc. Yes, I am currently "working on my hold" but a surgeon just discombobulated some tendons in my arm. Without that "Significant Emotiuonal Event," training specifically focused on "weightlifting" to "improve hold" was nothing more than a major waste of time and effort!

Steve

Many of you have probably seen the grip exerciser with the little spring loaded finger buttons (I forget what it's called). However, many of you have probably not seen the accessory that Scott Pilkington used to sell. It is a clip-on mini plastic sight rib with a fixed front and rear sight molded in.
It's pretty neat and adds a bit of interest to the exercise routine. I can't verify its proven usefulness, but was fun to use. I'd like to see them come back on the market.

Steve Swartz wrote:The Yes, I am currently "working on my hold" but a surgeon just discombobulated some tendons in my arm. Without that "Significant Emotiuonal Event," training specifically focused on "weightlifting" to "improve hold" was nothing more than a major waste of time and effort!

Steve

Steve,

You might find rehab exerecise helps you so much you'll keep it up when you are all better.

Best Regards,

Gordon

Yes Gordon- I think you are right.

The point I was (inartfully) trying to make is related to something a few of the "old school" US team members (Mel Makin, Erich Buljung, etc.) used to say related to weightlifting for shooting.

They would tell the story of the buffoon army coach who told them they would never be able to win a match unless they could (hold a rifle out at arm's length for a full minute, hold a gallon jug of water out at arm's length for a full minute, etc. etc.).

The lesson was- the coach was a buffoon because none of the current/past national/world champions would ever be able to do that; in addition, they would then regale us with stories of many "promising shooters who messed up their bodies/techniques" by weightlifting.

O.K.

The answer is neither "weightlift" nor "not weightlift."

The answer is "integrate resistance training in your routine that is appropriate for what you are trying to accomplish."

That's what I *meant* to say earlier; I was questioning/knocking a definition of weighlifting that was based on "strength training."

"Strength training" defined as use as much weight as is necessary to produce failure in 8-10 reps. Perfom 3-5 sets per session. This will build "strength" and "muscle mass."

But shooters don't *need* "strength" or "muscle mass" [see my earlier comment]. We need "Fine Motor Control" and "Endurance."

So- we need resistance training designed to help us achieve fine motor control and endurance. Light weights, lots and lots of reps.

- Hang a tennis ball off the end of your gun on a rubber band. Get it moving and then try to maintain alignment and settle.

- Make a "triangle" with light resistance (yellow) TheraBands across the muzzle of your gun. Lift above and then settle down into your hold. Alternate (set up some eye-bolts in a door frame) direction of resitance adduction/abduction up/down/left/right. Same thing; settling/holding with focus on alignment.

- Dry fire. A lot! (wearing 1 lb weight on your wrist not really necessary, but hey, "Chicken Soup Rule" applies)

- Shoot. A lot! (see "Chicken Soup Rule)

Also

- Physical Therapy for Rotator Cuff tear recovery. Lots of good fun with rubber bands.

- Physical Therapy for Golfer's/Shooter's Elbow recovery. Even more fun with rubber bands.

Note that none of these very useful and appropriate exercises involve any "weightlifting" per se. Nor are they technically "Strength Training" (well, I guess that depends on your definition).

And yes- I will be doing these drills "Religiously" probably from here on out . . . but my weights and weight bench will lie rusting in the garage.

Steve "The Quibbler" Swartz

[hmmm if I'm now both a "quibbler" and a "whiner" does that make me a "Whibbler?"]

One consideration I have not heard mentioned is having a well rounded physical training program to maintain proper muscle strength/balance. That is, if the only physical training is lifting the pistol/rifle whatever, and especially combined with training to improve hold with only the shooting arm, bad things will result.

The wisdom for correcting my tennis elbow difficulties my physical therapists have suggested is to strengthen the entire arm, shoulder muscles. Not weight lifting for strength, but perhaps a better term might be "conditioning." Hence, the pitol is better held and stabilized by more, better conditioned muscles.

The same would be true for the body core as well. Standing, holding a pistol with the arm extended requires the use of various body and back muscles. Could a program of general conditioning help prevent problems and raise the potential performance of the shooter?

What of aerobic exercise?

Consider that most of us have to work some number of hours a week to eat and buy ammunition. And we have to sleep so we can rest our eyes and mind so we can shoot. And what of family matters, emotional ties to other human beings…
All this leaves us with only so many hours a week to actually train for shooting. The physical training is part of those few hours we have left to train.

I wonder if it is possible that a simple, good overall physical training program, including resistance training and aerobics; perhaps some orientation to shooting, could benefit ones overall health. Hence ones potential shooting performance?

BTW, the ISSF News magazine has a series of articles on the back and shoulder, all about pistol shooting:

http://www.issfnews.com/newsmag/newsmag ... =5&page=34

Pete,
Thanks for the reference, but I have read that article twice and still cannot understand what the author is saying/recommending. Guess I'll try the bedroom mirror to see if my shoulder is in, out, up or down.

Fred

This may sound like a stupid question, but what "chemicals" are specifically banned? I heard beta blockers are banned at the Olympic level, but not sure of others. My reason for asking is that I have a health condition that requires me to take a certain prescribed medication that I would imagine the French would scream about if I was a competitive cycler. Not having competed at a very high level, I don't know what's "banned" in shooting sports.