I have a question regarding dry firing in a final - 10m AP. The rules categorically state that dry firing is not allowed.
Do I therefore understand that during a final - let's say during the period of idleness, where, for example, the scores of each individual are being announced, a competitor cannot 'squeeze his trigger in a dry fire action'?
Here's why I ask.
I'm using the Morini with electronic trigger. During the 60 shot qualification I find myself mentally rehearsing my shot routine between shots and prior to loading the next pellet, and dry firing several times, with the pistol rested on the bench. No - I'm not lifting the postol up and aligning on the back wall or target, I'm just squeezing the trigger off - getting the feel of a nice smooth action, with the elctronics going 'click', 'click', each time I do.
Let's take this accross to the final.
I'm starting to make these most weekends now, and last weekend allowed myself to do the same thing. Dry fire, pistol resting on bench unloaded, whilst thinking about my shot routine and whilst the targets were being gathered, fed through the Rika machine and then results read out aloud. The competitor next to me told me, friendly like, 'you can't dry fire during a final'. He was absolutely right, from what I've read too. The RO either didn't hear my trigger, didn't care, or didn't know the rules.
Of course, an interesting situation arises if I was using a pistol without an electronic trigger - as I could be squeezing that in the very same way, and unles the RO wanted to watch my shooting hand, he, and other competitors close by would never know. Nevertheless, I'd like to compete in the correct 'spirit of the game'. So, those of you who specialise in the rule book and interpretations - I'd appreciate your input. Thanks.
Dry Firing - in a final.
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Steve Swartz
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David Levene
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John Ariani
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Steve Swartz
John:
Slight change of subject- but the whole issue of dry firing an electronic trigger is fairly interesting (to me at least!).
I have found significant benefit in dry firing the Morini with switch off . . . you can actually feel the moment when the contact paddle "unsticks" from the relay. Kind of like a tiny speed bump along the constant force profile of the first-second stage stair step.
So I now train dry fire with both "click" mode and "bump" mode.
If nothing else, this has improved my sensitivity/feel for the smoothness of my release.
Your Mileage Will, Of Course, Vary!
Steve
(p.s. don't forget about the switch if you turn it off in Finals to work out some kinks between shots. This mistake has been made before!)
Slight change of subject- but the whole issue of dry firing an electronic trigger is fairly interesting (to me at least!).
I have found significant benefit in dry firing the Morini with switch off . . . you can actually feel the moment when the contact paddle "unsticks" from the relay. Kind of like a tiny speed bump along the constant force profile of the first-second stage stair step.
So I now train dry fire with both "click" mode and "bump" mode.
If nothing else, this has improved my sensitivity/feel for the smoothness of my release.
Your Mileage Will, Of Course, Vary!
Steve
(p.s. don't forget about the switch if you turn it off in Finals to work out some kinks between shots. This mistake has been made before!)
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Guest
Re: Dry Firing - in a final.
During the 60 shot qualification I find myself mentally rehearsing my shot routine between shots and prior to loading the next pellet, and dry firing several times, with the pistol rested on the bench. No - I'm not lifting the postol up and aligning on the back wall or target, I'm just squeezing the trigger off - getting the feel of a nice smooth action, with the elctronics going 'click', 'click', each time I do.
You have been very lucky that you have not been warned and removed from whatever competition you have been doing this act!
You have been very lucky that you have not been warned and removed from whatever competition you have been doing this act!
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John Ariani
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Guest!!! I just had to reply, and presume your agressiveness is due to a 'bad day'??!
"Removed from the event???" (60 shot series)
Why so?
Dry firing is allowed during the 60 shot qualifying round. My original post expalined as clearly as possible what and when I was doing. It attracted accurate, precise and helpful replies....and yours.
Please don't go into the 'is the pistol safely pointing in the right direction scenario etc" - I'm no moron!!
On the bench, facing down range, loading arm open.
Dry firing during the final - different matter. There's no question dry firing is against the rules. I was the one bringing this to notice. Although I suspect the result would not be so dramatic (as being removed).
More like - warned once - then disqualified if 'twice'.
What was more in my mind when writing my original post was the 'definition' of dry firing.
I had this picture of the dry firing action being similar to when we are allowed to dry fire during preparation time. We go through the actions (lift the pistol, alighn the sights, stand stable, arm outstretched )but with no releasing of a shot, but a squeeze of the trigger - a dry fire. Were the rules written for the 10 shot final to disallow dry firing, so that the eight competitors aren't all lifting their pistols up and down at the first opportunity inbetwen competition shots - when results are being collaborated and announced? From an ISSF and television broadcast point of view, propably yes. I can see exactly why dry firing would not be allowed. The viewer (who possibly may not know anything about shooting) could be hell confused seeing 8 people lifting and lowering their pistols, with adjudicators talking and no scores being evident. Confusion for the viewer? I thought that (just maybe??) the definition of dry firing may be in regard to the lifting and sighting of the pistol - and not the squeezing of the trigger at bench level.
After all, we've now concluded that it's the 'click' that gives one away. Yet squeezing the trigger with the electonics turned off is in fact - still dry firing. Against the rules - Yes. Against the spirit of the sport - probably a yes too. (if it's a violation of the rules) It does show that 'interpretation' of dry firing can be a little 'grey'. Would it be a brave (or over enthusiastic) RO who warned and then disqualified a competitor who visibly 'squeezed' his trigger in a dry fire motion during a final?? If the answer is yes, then the 'squeezing of the trigger whilst at bench level' is not generally considered as dry firing by RO's - or is not noticed (not seen as there's no sound) by them.
"Removed from the event???" (60 shot series)
Why so?
Dry firing is allowed during the 60 shot qualifying round. My original post expalined as clearly as possible what and when I was doing. It attracted accurate, precise and helpful replies....and yours.
Please don't go into the 'is the pistol safely pointing in the right direction scenario etc" - I'm no moron!!
On the bench, facing down range, loading arm open.
Dry firing during the final - different matter. There's no question dry firing is against the rules. I was the one bringing this to notice. Although I suspect the result would not be so dramatic (as being removed).
More like - warned once - then disqualified if 'twice'.
What was more in my mind when writing my original post was the 'definition' of dry firing.
I had this picture of the dry firing action being similar to when we are allowed to dry fire during preparation time. We go through the actions (lift the pistol, alighn the sights, stand stable, arm outstretched )but with no releasing of a shot, but a squeeze of the trigger - a dry fire. Were the rules written for the 10 shot final to disallow dry firing, so that the eight competitors aren't all lifting their pistols up and down at the first opportunity inbetwen competition shots - when results are being collaborated and announced? From an ISSF and television broadcast point of view, propably yes. I can see exactly why dry firing would not be allowed. The viewer (who possibly may not know anything about shooting) could be hell confused seeing 8 people lifting and lowering their pistols, with adjudicators talking and no scores being evident. Confusion for the viewer? I thought that (just maybe??) the definition of dry firing may be in regard to the lifting and sighting of the pistol - and not the squeezing of the trigger at bench level.
After all, we've now concluded that it's the 'click' that gives one away. Yet squeezing the trigger with the electonics turned off is in fact - still dry firing. Against the rules - Yes. Against the spirit of the sport - probably a yes too. (if it's a violation of the rules) It does show that 'interpretation' of dry firing can be a little 'grey'. Would it be a brave (or over enthusiastic) RO who warned and then disqualified a competitor who visibly 'squeezed' his trigger in a dry fire motion during a final?? If the answer is yes, then the 'squeezing of the trigger whilst at bench level' is not generally considered as dry firing by RO's - or is not noticed (not seen as there's no sound) by them.
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David Levene
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Remember that you are allowed to raise the pistol during the scoring process. In full, rule 8.14.6.1.5.6 says:-John Ariani wrote:Were the rules written for the 10 shot final to disallow dry firing, so that the eight competitors aren't all lifting their pistols up and down at the first opportunity inbetwen competition shots - when results are being collaborated and announced? From an ISSF and television broadcast point of view, propably yes. I can see exactly why dry firing would not be allowed. The viewer (who possibly may not know anything about shooting) could be hell confused seeing 8 people lifting and lowering their pistols, with adjudicators talking and no scores being evident. Confusion for the viewer? I thought that (just maybe??) the definition of dry firing may be in regard to the lifting and sighting of the pistol - and not the squeezing of the trigger at bench level.
"AIMING EXERCISES ARE ALLOWED ONLY between the commands “STOP” and the following command “LOAD” but only with an open breech on a 50 m pistol, or with an uncocked air pistol. DRY FIRING IS PROHIBITED."
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Fred Mannis
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Definition of Dry Firing
The definition of this process is still unclear to me. Is there a written definition in the rules? My understanding always was that it was identical in all respects to live fire, except that the gun was not loaded with a cartridge/pellet. Obviously this is not the case , given the present discussion. :-)David Levene wrote:If it goes "click" then it's dry firing, if it doesn't then it isn't.
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David Levene
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Re: Definition of Dry Firing
Rule 8.2.5.3.1:-Fred Mannis wrote:The definition of this process is still unclear to me. Is there a written definition in the rules? My understanding always was that it was identical in all respects to live fire, except that the gun was not loaded with a cartridge/pellet. Obviously this is not the case , given the present discussion. :-)David Levene wrote:If it goes "click" then it's dry firing, if it doesn't then it isn't.
"Dry Firing means the release of the cocked trigger mechanism of an unloaded cartridge pistol or the release of the trigger mechanism of an air or gas pistol fitted with a device which enables the trigger to be operated without releasing the propelling charge (air or gas)."
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John Ariani
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I've worked it out. (he says with confidence!!!) Thanks to all contributors. David and Fred bringing this to a definition clarity.
By the way Steve, I do remember your post of over a year ago about being able to feel the solenoid on the Morini, when squeezing the trigger with the electrics turned off and it's a great solution. Thanks.
Well, having 'no dry firing allowed' mentioned to me last weekend in a final, prompted this post and I should have read the rules more carefully. David's printing of the pertenant points makes it a lot more clear.
In short - aiming exercises are allowed - so yes - the pistol can be raised and pointed at the target.
Dry firing, by definition, means the pistol has to be cocked. With the Mornini, that would mean the electrics turned on, with a pistol like the LP 10, that would mean raising and lowering the cocking arm so that on the squeeze of the trigger, no gas is expelled but there would be a definite 'click' due to the cocking of the arm.
So my final interpretation is that aiming exercises along with the squeezing of the trigger of an uncocked pistol is allowed and compliant within the rules. The squeezing of the trigger not being classed as dry firing, as the pistol is not - or has not - been cocked.
For me, the 'simulation' of dry firing (not cocked anymore) and the ability to perform aiming exercises definitely helps me to relax between shots. Being able to do this in a final, I sure, will be even more beneficial. I'll find out this weekend - given I shoot well in the qualifying.
Thanks all for the dialogue.
By the way Steve, I do remember your post of over a year ago about being able to feel the solenoid on the Morini, when squeezing the trigger with the electrics turned off and it's a great solution. Thanks.
Well, having 'no dry firing allowed' mentioned to me last weekend in a final, prompted this post and I should have read the rules more carefully. David's printing of the pertenant points makes it a lot more clear.
In short - aiming exercises are allowed - so yes - the pistol can be raised and pointed at the target.
Dry firing, by definition, means the pistol has to be cocked. With the Mornini, that would mean the electrics turned on, with a pistol like the LP 10, that would mean raising and lowering the cocking arm so that on the squeeze of the trigger, no gas is expelled but there would be a definite 'click' due to the cocking of the arm.
So my final interpretation is that aiming exercises along with the squeezing of the trigger of an uncocked pistol is allowed and compliant within the rules. The squeezing of the trigger not being classed as dry firing, as the pistol is not - or has not - been cocked.
For me, the 'simulation' of dry firing (not cocked anymore) and the ability to perform aiming exercises definitely helps me to relax between shots. Being able to do this in a final, I sure, will be even more beneficial. I'll find out this weekend - given I shoot well in the qualifying.
Thanks all for the dialogue.
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Bruce Martindale
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Without invoking a Clintonism on the definition of "is", "cocked" traditionally meant the mainspring in a FWB 360 spring air gun.
In Mechanical trigger CO2/air guns, I would interpret that as the ability to discharge air with a trigger pull. The air discharge is clearly prohibited (or allowed with penalty) and "cocked" would apply to the striker or loading lever.
The Electronics however, are always ready to fire even if the spring is not cocked. The click is almost inaudible and there is no motion visible. Its a fine point. As a competitor I couldnt give a hoot what the others are doing and it would be small minded to interject such a petty complaint; it is a distraction from your primary task namely beating everyone else.
I would ask a USAS official for the current interpretation if you really want to be sure. As to consequences, there is a yellow card and then a red one. I have seen them come out too!
best regards
In Mechanical trigger CO2/air guns, I would interpret that as the ability to discharge air with a trigger pull. The air discharge is clearly prohibited (or allowed with penalty) and "cocked" would apply to the striker or loading lever.
The Electronics however, are always ready to fire even if the spring is not cocked. The click is almost inaudible and there is no motion visible. Its a fine point. As a competitor I couldnt give a hoot what the others are doing and it would be small minded to interject such a petty complaint; it is a distraction from your primary task namely beating everyone else.
I would ask a USAS official for the current interpretation if you really want to be sure. As to consequences, there is a yellow card and then a red one. I have seen them come out too!
best regards
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David Levene
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Remember that under rule 8.2.5.3.1 there is no requirement for the pistol to be "cocked", dry firing is purely the release of the trigger mechanism (obviously without the release of the air/gas).Bruce Martindale wrote:Without invoking a Clintonism on the definition of "is", "cocked" traditionally meant the mainspring in a FWB 360 spring air gun.
In Mechanical trigger CO2/air guns, I would interpret that as the ability to discharge air with a trigger pull. The air discharge is clearly prohibited (or allowed with penalty) and "cocked" would apply to the striker or loading lever.
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Steve Swartz
Oooooh man I worried that this was going to devolve . . . so, the argument could be made, since the electronic guns have no sear per se, the lifting of the contact paddle off the rest constitues a "release of the trigger mechanism" (there may/may not be a hammer, sear, etc. etc. at all) and therefore dry firing . . .
. . . so even if the pistol weren't cocked, and the electronics were totally turned off, a MD could "Interpret" the rules to disallow "pumping the trigger" on electrics but *not* on mechanical guns.
Yikes.
Steve
. . . so even if the pistol weren't cocked, and the electronics were totally turned off, a MD could "Interpret" the rules to disallow "pumping the trigger" on electrics but *not* on mechanical guns.
Yikes.
Steve
Interpretation of the rules
The rules around finals have some contradictions in my opinion.
For finals:
Further:
8.14.6.1.5 Commands states:
For finals:
As this statement is made in reference to the period between STOP and LOAD, I can (and do) interpret it as only limited dry fire while waiting to shoot. It is not clear that you can't dry fire in the 75 seconds. Rule 8.6.4.4.1 states that dry firing is allowed after the START command.8.14.6.1.5.6 AIMING EXERCISES ARE ALLOWED ONLY between the
commands “STOP” and the following command “LOAD” but
only with an open breech on a 50 m pistol, or with an uncocked
air pistol.DRY FIRING IS PROHIBITED
Further:
8.14.6.1.5 Commands states:
Now I use a FWB P40, and I can't do aiming exercises with the breach open (the latch blocks the sights)... so does that mean I am breaking rule 8.14.6.1.5 if I comply with 8.14.6.1.5.6?The pistol MUST NOT be loaded before this
command (LOAD) is given.
That means: The breech of 50 m pistols
MUST be open. It is permitted to leave an
empty case in the chamber between shots.
10 m Air Pistols must be uncocked.
Re: Interpretation of the rules
There is no conflict. The rules were changed, quite some time back, allowing air pistols (and rifles) to have the loading area left closed.CROB wrote:... so does that mean I am breaking rule 8.14.6.1.5 if I comply with 8.14.6.1.5.6?
'Uncocked' in 8.14.6.1.5 means a shooter does not have to open the action of an air pistol - opening it (usually) involves cocking the action.
The rule change was specifically to allow aiming exercises that were not imppeded by the cocking lever.
Spencer
Thanks Spencer.
So does that mean that after each shot in the final, you don't have to open the action/breach of an air pistol?
This would therefore leave the pistol ready to do some "holding" as described in the rules.
Regarding dry firing in a final within the 75 second period after START and before LOAD, is what is the official interpretation on that?
Thanks.
So does that mean that after each shot in the final, you don't have to open the action/breach of an air pistol?
This would therefore leave the pistol ready to do some "holding" as described in the rules.
Regarding dry firing in a final within the 75 second period after START and before LOAD, is what is the official interpretation on that?
Thanks.
YesCROB wrote:So does that mean that after each shot in the final, you don't have to open the action/breach of an air pistol?
This would therefore leave the pistol ready to do some "holding" as described in the rules.
While it could be argued that the wording in 8.14.6.1.5.6 is ambiguous, it would be a very brave shooter that dry-fired outside the Sighters time!CROB wrote:Regarding dry firing in a final within the 75 second period after START and before LOAD, is what is the official interpretation on that?
Spencer
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Steve Swartz
From a practical standpoint, if you don't open the breech the range officilas assume you have not discharged your shot (more often than not).
Therefore, if you keep your breech closed to do some dry fire/holding/pointing/fooling around, you are, in the eyes of the match director, "holding up the match."
I mean, think about it- you have 8 people who shoot finals. When all observers note that their charges have fired their shot, they signal that their part of the line is done. If you keep your action closed, they will assume you are still waiting to shoot.
Well yes; of course you have the right to take the full 75 seconds . . . but I believe it would be considered a great rudeness to do so just because you need extra practice!
Do you *really* want to be irritating the match officials?
Take care of your business and get the heck out of the way. Be a Good Citizen.
Steve Swartz
Therefore, if you keep your breech closed to do some dry fire/holding/pointing/fooling around, you are, in the eyes of the match director, "holding up the match."
I mean, think about it- you have 8 people who shoot finals. When all observers note that their charges have fired their shot, they signal that their part of the line is done. If you keep your action closed, they will assume you are still waiting to shoot.
Well yes; of course you have the right to take the full 75 seconds . . . but I believe it would be considered a great rudeness to do so just because you need extra practice!
Do you *really* want to be irritating the match officials?
Take care of your business and get the heck out of the way. Be a Good Citizen.
Steve Swartz