Unknown FWB

[haemis762]

Hello all, i am returning to AP after a break of a few years. I had an old FWB that had a 'verlical' co2 tank, like a little jar/tin, a bit like the walther. Could anyone give me an idea of what model it was.
Secondly, i want to try and shoot competively eventually and was shooting around 520 with this weapon. Can i shoot better scores with this or am i pushing the proverbial up hill? Will the fancy newish AP make my shooting that much better? I have reliably been informed that a Morini or LP10 are my best options.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers Haemish

PS i am returning to air pistol as i do not have the patience anymore to shoot competitive air rifle ie pants, boots jacket hat glasses scope. The joy of only needing one bag to go to a shoot, AP will be it for me.

[Jim Cruise]

I believe you have a Feinwerkbau C25. An image and some information may be found in the 10P files through our host Pilkguns main site (under coaching & information).

I would suggest that providing the pistol works, and the cylinder seals are OK, then there is no reason that you could attain scores well above your previous 520 with that all important thing.........training.

Perhaps if you really want a new pistol, then set a goal to reach with the C25; say 550 or so, then consider updating as a reward for your efforts.
Enjoy.

[jipe]

could it be that one:

http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/spfwbc25.htm

If it is, it is a C25 a pretty good pistol. It has the the drawback of CO2 (annoying to refill, become difficult to find CO2, change of speed with temperature) and fact that CO2 is dissapearing, but it should allow you to go far beyond 520.

[haemis762]

Yep, that's it. Mine does not have the compensator on the front though, i built my own that seems to work fine.
Cheers, Haemish

[Richard H]

could it be that one:

http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/spfwbc25.htm

If it is, it is a C25 a pretty good pistol. It has the the drawback of CO2 (annoying to refill, become difficult to find CO2, change of speed with temperature) and fact that CO2 is dissapearing, but it should allow you to go far beyond 520.

CO2 disappearing??? I shoot compressed air but finding CO2 is no problem. Any fire supply outfit has it to fill fire extinguishers, welding supply places have it, and its widely used in soda dispensers. A 20lb tank of CO2 will almost last you a lifetime of shooting.

[jipe]

could it be that one:

http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/spfwbc25.htm

If it is, it is a C25 a pretty good pistol. It has the the drawback of CO2 (annoying to refill, become difficult to find CO2, change of speed with temperature) and fact that CO2 is dissapearing, but it should allow you to go far beyond 520.

CO2 disappearing???

From the shooting ranges: I see very few CO2 pistol, most people now shoot compressed air,

[Richard H]

Yes because that's what they are selling now, but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with CO2 or its not available. There was sort of a manufactured obselesence, that CO2 was inconsistant, which is true but only in very certain circumtances, which very few if any 10m AP shooting is done.

I shoot compressed air too, you'd be hard pressed to find a new CO2 pistol anywhere.

[cdf]

CO2 didnt suddenly turn to poop overnight , an old skool LP1 would give any modern AP a run for its money . They have an advantage - no regulator . IIRC the AP record is still held by a CO2 gun .

Chris

[Reinhamre]

the AP record is still held by a CO2 gun .

Chris

Not because it was a CO2 gun but because of a good shooter with luck using a pistol that was top class at that time.
Sure, CO2 is OK but how about hand pump? You must admit that compressed air is convenient. I do recall though that some of us does have problem with supply. In that case you must try to find a CO2 while you can.

Kent

[Richard H]

the AP record is still held by a CO2 gun .

Chris

Not because it was a CO2 gun but because of a good shooter with luck using a pistol that was top class at that time.
Sure, CO2 is OK but how about hand pump? You must admit that compressed air is convenient. I do recall though that some of us does have problem with supply. In that case you must try to find a CO2 while you can.

Kent

I don't think he was suggesting that the world rcord was on account of CO2. The fact is CO2 really has no bad effect on 10m shooting (which is shot indoors where the temp is controlled). I'd think the gentlemen who shot the world record probably thought is more than LUCK.


There's no problem finding CO2 in North America, its used in many everday things here. I wouldn't say a hand pump is more convenient than CO2. CO2 is in a tank and although to get a full fill there are a few more steps the process is about the same as filling a CA cylinder. A tank of which will last much longer than a tank of the same size of CA. I would never steer anyone awya from a good quality CO2 pistol, just because its CO2. I think finding CO2 is probably just as difficult as finding compressed air in a small place that doesn't have a dive shop.

[jipe]

the AP record is still held by a CO2 gun .

Chris

Not because it was a CO2 gun but because of a good shooter with luck using a pistol that was top class at that time.
Sure, CO2 is OK but how about hand pump? You must admit that compressed air is convenient. I do recall though that some of us does have problem with supply. In that case you must try to find a CO2 while you can.

Kent

I don't think he was suggesting that the world rcord was on account of CO2. The fact is CO2 really has no bad effect on 10m shooting (which is shot indoors where the temp is controlled). I'd think the gentlemen who shot the world record probably thought is more than LUCK.


There's no problem finding CO2 in North America, its used in many everday things here. I wouldn't say a hand pump is more convenient than CO2. CO2 is in a tank and although to get a full fill there are a few more steps the process is about the same as filling a CA cylinder. A tank of which will last much longer than a tank of the same size of CA. I would never steer anyone awya from a good quality CO2 pistol, just because its CO2. It hink find CO2 is probably just as difficult as finding compressed air in a small place that doesn't have a dive shop.

Here I do not agree: I wouldn't recommend to invest now in a CO2 pistol unless it is very cheap or can be converted to air (like the LP1).

The reasons are:
- it is already difficult to sell a CO2 pistol, and this will become more and more difficult => you have a high risk to loose your investment. The chance of wanting to sell it back seems to me high: either you do not like 10m AP and therefore want to sell the pistol back, either you like it and sooner or later want to sell it back to buy a more modern/sophisticated one (CO2 are pistol are not bad but the last new model introduced on the market was a long time ago now, since then progress has been done).
- it was a time when many shooting ranges had a CO2 tank, this is less and less the case nowadays and will probably diminish. On the other hand, more and more ranges invest in a compressor.
- slowly more and more people responsible of shooting ranges start talking of forbidding the use of CO2 weapons in their range.

About the hand pump: I do not want to start the discussion about how hard it is to use it (personnally, I don't feel it hard at all) but it makes you independent what is impossible with CO2. If you have to travel by air, it is the solution unless you know where to refill your CO2 or air cylinders at the place you are going. Carrying a (empty of course) tank on a plane, CO2 or air, is not convenient at all.

About refilling the CO2 cylinder compared to air cylinders:
- For air cylinders, it is pretty easy: screw it to the tank/compressor/hand pump, load it and that's it (some effort for the hand pump).
- For the CO2, you need to put the cylinder in the fridge, wait it cools, then transfer the CO2 and weight the cylinder to adjust the amount of CO2 (you then need an accurate scale). You also need a scale to verify how much CO2 you have in your cylinder while most air cylinder have now a built in manometer.
=> air is much more easy to refill/verify than CO2.

About the controlled temperature in indoor shooting ranges, I have a lot of experiences of unheated, very cold shooting ranges during the winter that become much warmer in the summer.

[Richard H]

The reasons are:
- it is already difficult to sell a CO2 pistol, and this will become more and more difficult => you have a high risk to loose your investment. The chance of wanting to sell it back seems to me high: either you do not like 10m AP and therefore want to sell the pistol back, either you like it and sooner or later want to sell it back to buy a more modern/sophisticated one (CO2 are pistol are not bad but the last new model introduced on the market was a long time ago now, since then progress has been done).

True, this is really only because people continue to perpetuate the myth that CA is better than CO2.

For the most part air pistol are a poor INVESTMENT vehicle. They all decpreciate in value. I prefer my investments to make money not loose it. The CO2 LP1's have lost somewhere around $3-500 in approx. 10 years or more that not really that bad (approx. 25% of their value).

- it was a time when many shooting ranges had a CO2 tank, this is less and less the case nowadays and will probably diminish. On the other hand, more and more ranges invest in a compressor.
- slowly more and more people responsible of shooting ranges start talking of forbidding the use of CO2 weapons in their range.

Very few (I know of none ) in NA that have compressors usually due to the Liability fact of dealing with 3000PSI cylinders (CO2 although still dangerous) is at a much lower pressure, so they precieve it as safer.

Why would they forbid the use of CO2, is this one of the silly European green things? If so we might as well just stop shooting because they also want to ban all lead too. What are they going to do about the exhalations of the shooters?

About the hand pump: I do not want to start the discussion about how hard it is to use it (personnally, I don't feel it hard at all) but it makes you independent what is impossible with CO2. If you have to travel by air, it is the solution unless you know where to refill your CO2 or air cylinders at the place you are going. Carrying a (empty of course) tank on a plane, CO2 or air, is not convenient at all.

No arguement a hand pump does remove the need for any outside source of propulsion (as would the SSP). the truth be told the vast majority of CA user do not regularly use a hand pump.

About refilling the CO2 cylinder compared to air cylinders:
- For air cylinders, it is pretty easy: screw it to the tank/compressor/hand pump, load it and that's it (some effort for the hand pump).
- For the CO2, you need to put the cylinder in the fridge, wait it cools, then transfer the CO2 and weight the cylinder to adjust the amount of CO2 (you then need an accurate scale). You also need a scale to verify how much CO2 you have in your cylinder while most air cylinder have now a built in manometer.
=> air is much more easy to refill/verify than CO2..

True. You only need to chill the cylinder if you want a full fill (which is not required to shoot a match plus.
If you want to chill the cylinder quickly all you have to do is release some CO2 from the cylinder.
The scale is really only needed if you do either of the 2 things above to get you a full fill.

About the controlled temperature in indoor shooting ranges, I have a lot of experiences of unheated, very cold shooting ranges during the winter that become much warmer in the summer.

Well a controlled temp doesn't mean warm it means there are not widely varying temps while shooting. Believe me I come from Canada we have our share of very cold ranges.

I don't even own a CO2 pistol but it amazes me the misinformation that is out there regarding them. As for converting an LP1 yes its available but have you ever priced it, even a cheap LP1 wiht the conversion kit will put you only a few hundred dollars below a new LP10.

That said check to make sure that you can buy CO2 or compressed air in your area before you buy either pistol. IF there is no C02 in your area and no place to get scuba cylinders filled then I would agree it looks like you'd have to go to a CA and a hand pump (or Nitrogen from a welding supply shop).

One other thing in modern air pistols basically there are 2 things that can go wrong seals and the regulator, with a CO2 pistol there is no regualtor so that just leaves a couple dollars worth the seals to replace,

[jipe]

Very few (I know of none ) in NA that have compressors usually due to the Liability fact of dealing with 3000PSI cylinders (CO2 although still dangerous) is at a much lower pressure, so they precieve it as safer.

In Europe, compressor become available.

Why would they forbid the use of CO2, is this one of the silly European green things? If so we might as well just stop shooting because they also want to ban all lead too. What are they going to do about the exhalations of the shooters?

True, lead bullets for firearms begin also to be forbidden, several shooting ranges ask for CMJ coated bullets. Being a reloader, I can also say that lead bullet are nowadays difficult to find.

As for converting an LP1 yes its available but have you ever priced it, even a cheap LP1 wiht the conversion kit will put you only a few hundred dollars below a new LP10.

Agree with you: it would be too expensive compared with a new pistol. Same for buying a compensator and/or alu cylinder for an early LP1 that would also be very old.

[Richard H]

Compressor are availale here too just that the lawyers cost even more.

[Reinhamre]

I'd think the gentlemen who shot the world record probably thought is more than LUCK.

There are always three things involved:
Luck
Talent
Training
ALL three elements are necessary, none can be omitted.
Luck may be the smallest factor but you can not be without it. What good is it to shoot 599 in a small club match? Yes, OK it would feel good.

Another thing about CO2 though, in a 5 shooter the mechanism will be chilled and stop working. Maybe that got CO2 a bad reputation in Europe.
I have had a Morini CO2, it was just like the 162E, but they soon switched to CA though. You do not have to be afraid of a single shot CO2 but it is an old pistol and it may be difficult to find spare parts or sell the gun later.
Kent

[Richard H]

Agree older guns are always harder to get parts for. Also agree that CO2 in a rpaid fire air pistol would most likely cause problems.

As for shooting a 599, I'd be happy to shoot a 599 anywhere anytime including my basement unfortunately I haven't had anywheres near that much luck yet.

Just to ensure that its clear I'm not saying that CO2 is better than compressed air. I just don't agree that CO2 is bad for single shot airguns.

[David M]

Hey Guys, you are loosing the plot in this CO2 vs Air argument.
The major difference between CO2 and Air is how the regulation of shot pressure is achieved.

This is the big problem in CO2 due to changing enviromental conditions.
Air is high pressure dropped via a pressure regulator (pressure reducing valve) to a near constant pressure for each shot, until the tank pressure drops below minimum pressure.

CO2 uses the Reid Vapour pressure of boiling CO2 to give a constant pressure (the conversion of liquid to gas) and it gives a constant pressure whilst there is still liquid in the tank, and the TEMPERATURE REMAINS CONSTANT.
Sounds simple, but you have to control the fill (amount of liquid), the temperature of the pistol (from storage to end of match), know when the liquid has all been consumed.

A cold enviroment (ie Canada) is fairly easy to control the system, in a hot climate the pistol was a nightmare if not looked after (ie Australia).
Leave the pistol in the boot of your car in the sun until you shoot (temp outside 34c /100f - boot temp up to 40c / 120f) it stopped working because the pressure was so high the striker would not open the valve.
Overfill the pistol and it would spit liquid.

For the average shooter Air is a lot easier with a lot less faults, you only need one dud pressure release in a match and you loose lots of points, there are no malfunction reshoots if the pellet dribbles out of the barrel.

[Richard H]

Well Canada is cold and Canada is hot and humid. I wouldn't recommend leaving compressed air cylinders in a hot trunk (boot) either or any pistol in the trunk (boot) of a hot car.

They used it for years without many problems, then low and behold a new compressed air gun now all CO2 pistol are garbage immediately.


I agree compressed air is easier, and is more idiot proof (ie overfilling or trying to use while its burning hot because some one left it in a car trunk)
but it didn't turn every CO2 pistol into crap over night.

So to properly use CO2 don't over fill it and if the cylinder is warm to the touch because you left it sitting in the sun in your trunk you'll have to cool it down first (just stick in the bleeder for a split second and it will chill the cylinder). Basically all the arguements against it are basically misuses of it.

If we get to misuses, the misuse of compressed air is far more serious.

[cdf]

All of the above notwithstanding , I would be most happy to find a Co2 LP1 at a good price , all the above said , I doubt I would convert it to CA .

Chris

[paw080]

Hi everyone, I completely agree with Richard H and CDF. I've got a LP1-C
CO2 that my son and I share for 10 meter AP. I got it from a friend..LD
as some of you may know him as. He set me up with a paintball fill tank
and valve and filling is very easy, I just followed his instructions(weighing
with a cheap digital scale). I live in Corona California, USA and my small
town has at least 4 paintball shops and I can get fills from many close
sporting goods stores. there is no real need for me to get a CA AP, but
I could if I wished. I also shoot an FWB mod 100, swapping with my son at
matches. My LP1-C doesn't lift at shot release, but it does recoil...which I
actually like. So I'll keep my eyes open when another LP1-C shows up at
the Prado monthly AP matches or on the classifieds. I almost have enough
money saved for a used one, so my son and I don't have to trade APs each
month. Then again I really liked shooting Fabrice Maurel's Anchutz LP&&
last month...I think I like it better than the LP10...We all are lucky we do
have many choices in APs; SSP,CA or CO2(used). I read and reread all
of your posts guys and girls Thanks;
Tony Gallegos