A perhaps silly question but as I am contemplating getting back into AP shooting, i am wondering how much effort is required with a hand pump (Hill for instance) to fill an AP cylinder to 200 BAR - are we talking hundreds of strokes and hours of effort or is it actually quite effortless and quick. Thealternative of course being a scuba tank but more difficult to travel with etc.
Any thoughts much appreciated -
best rgds,
Max
How much effort is required with a handpump to get 200 BAR
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2650 Plus
Hand pump effort
Just recieved a pump from champions choice advertised as so easy even a child can do it. My best guess is that the child would have to weigh over 200 pounds to have much success filling to 200 bar. It aint easy but it can be done and I don't think the air lines will allow you to board with a charged scuba tank. Good Shooting Bill Horton
I've got a Morini 162E with fixed cylinder, and finally got tired of dragging my 80cu.ft. SCUBA tank around to matches. I thought about a pump, but for about the same money, purchased a 6cu.ft. "pony" tank, about the size of a small thermos bottle, and a transfer hose to refill it from my larger tanks. Much more convenient, at least for ground travel, and a lot easier on this old body.
I haven't had the occasion to fly with my air pistol, but I'm sure Bill is right. It's my understanding that people who have to travel with oxygen for health reasons, have to have forms filled out by their doctors to get permission.
Paul
I haven't had the occasion to fly with my air pistol, but I'm sure Bill is right. It's my understanding that people who have to travel with oxygen for health reasons, have to have forms filled out by their doctors to get permission.
Paul
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Max,
I use a Hill pump to fill my AP cylinder and the effort required is not excessive. There is a learning period during which it may seem difficult, but once you get the knack of it it's no big deal. Filling from empty takes a while, but topping off, of course, takes less time. You don't want to fill a cylinder immediately before shooting because your heart rate will be higher. The pump instructions will tell you to pause after about 25 strokes to let the system cool down (you included) so that gives you a break. Whether a pump is right for you may depend on how frequently you think you may need to use it. FYI, I am 65, 185 lbs, 6 ft tall. There have been several threads here in the past about using hand pumps.
I use a Hill pump to fill my AP cylinder and the effort required is not excessive. There is a learning period during which it may seem difficult, but once you get the knack of it it's no big deal. Filling from empty takes a while, but topping off, of course, takes less time. You don't want to fill a cylinder immediately before shooting because your heart rate will be higher. The pump instructions will tell you to pause after about 25 strokes to let the system cool down (you included) so that gives you a break. Whether a pump is right for you may depend on how frequently you think you may need to use it. FYI, I am 65, 185 lbs, 6 ft tall. There have been several threads here in the past about using hand pumps.
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Guest
How much effort is required.........
Hi, Max,
Regarding pumping up your air pistol cylinder - I am 73 and I can pump my cylinder up to 200 bars reasonably easily, when the pump is in good order.
When I pump up my cylinder, I do it in the morning when I am at my fittest! My LP10 cylinder is down to the bottom of the green area after I have had a full 60 shot match. It takes me about 30 strokes of the pump to get back to 150 bar, and another 20 strokes to get to the 200 bar level.
My pump is an Axsor pump which is about 5 years old. I never let my cylinders get empty, they are always at least half filled.
My wife cannot use the pump, though. She just bounces off the top!
There is a definite technique for using it - the handle must always go down to the bottom, and use you whole body weight by bending your knees to work the pump.
My pump never gets hot, even in the hot weather conditions.
I have just purchased a tank, so my pump will only be used when I go away for a competition, as a back-up.
Regards, Alex L. in Oz.
Regarding pumping up your air pistol cylinder - I am 73 and I can pump my cylinder up to 200 bars reasonably easily, when the pump is in good order.
When I pump up my cylinder, I do it in the morning when I am at my fittest! My LP10 cylinder is down to the bottom of the green area after I have had a full 60 shot match. It takes me about 30 strokes of the pump to get back to 150 bar, and another 20 strokes to get to the 200 bar level.
My pump is an Axsor pump which is about 5 years old. I never let my cylinders get empty, they are always at least half filled.
My wife cannot use the pump, though. She just bounces off the top!
There is a definite technique for using it - the handle must always go down to the bottom, and use you whole body weight by bending your knees to work the pump.
My pump never gets hot, even in the hot weather conditions.
I have just purchased a tank, so my pump will only be used when I go away for a competition, as a back-up.
Regards, Alex L. in Oz.
I have a Gehmann pump (also sold by Anschutz and oder brands).
It is really not a big deal to fill the cylinder of my LP10: it takes less than 5 minutes (never measured the exact time, probably 3 minutes like AAlex says) to fill one cylinder from the yellow limit to the 200bar limit. For information, I am 1.80m tall, 76kg.
The trick to do it easily and efficiently, is to do full stroke with the pump, i.e. moving the pump to its full extension, completly up and then completely down. If you try to only move the pump a part of its extension, then it will take much more stroke to fill the cylinder.
My wife (1.60m tall, 55kg) can also do it. She must do more more effort than I must do, but she can do it.
I never tried the Hill, but from what I heard the Gehmann is a little easier to use.
When you need to carry your pistol on airplanes, the pump is the only usable solution unless you know somebody at your destination that can refill your cylinders.
It is really not a big deal to fill the cylinder of my LP10: it takes less than 5 minutes (never measured the exact time, probably 3 minutes like AAlex says) to fill one cylinder from the yellow limit to the 200bar limit. For information, I am 1.80m tall, 76kg.
The trick to do it easily and efficiently, is to do full stroke with the pump, i.e. moving the pump to its full extension, completly up and then completely down. If you try to only move the pump a part of its extension, then it will take much more stroke to fill the cylinder.
My wife (1.60m tall, 55kg) can also do it. She must do more more effort than I must do, but she can do it.
I never tried the Hill, but from what I heard the Gehmann is a little easier to use.
When you need to carry your pistol on airplanes, the pump is the only usable solution unless you know somebody at your destination that can refill your cylinders.
Somewhat of an older thread here but I'll jump in.
Yes, a hand pump will work and it can indeed be done. However, it does take a lot of effort and weighing in at around 200 lbs and or, being young (which I'm not...61) is a definite plus but, either way it does take a bit of effort and will really get that heart pumping!
Whatever pump you decide on on (I have a Hill) you must get a dry pack to remove the moisture. I just purchased an 80 cubic ft. SCUBA tank and had the shop fill it to 3,200 psi. They will do it if you sign a waiver and it will cause no harm to the tank and or, it's fittings. As for the pump give it time to cool off (and also yourself!) and you should be good to go. The pump will heat up and lessen it's life and cause even more moisture.
The same goes for a SCUBA tank! They will at times fill them quite fast and you're getting a tad ripped off as for pressure! As we all know, warm/hot air expands and gives a higher pressure rating. When the tank cools down you really don't have a full 3000 psi. I had my tank filled for the first time today and I had a bit of a walk in cold air back to my car. When I placed it in the back of my car the tank was quite warm. I seriously doubt that in reality I even had 3000 psi let alone the 3200 psi that I asked for. I'll soon find out how many charges I get out of it. My plans are to use the pump until it gets very difficult and then top it off using the tank. I'll soon find out how it all works out. There are not exactly too many dive shops in Chicago and the closest one is a real pain in the ass to drive to due to traffic. I'd rather try to keep the trips as minimal as possible.
~Phil
Yes, a hand pump will work and it can indeed be done. However, it does take a lot of effort and weighing in at around 200 lbs and or, being young (which I'm not...61) is a definite plus but, either way it does take a bit of effort and will really get that heart pumping!
Whatever pump you decide on on (I have a Hill) you must get a dry pack to remove the moisture. I just purchased an 80 cubic ft. SCUBA tank and had the shop fill it to 3,200 psi. They will do it if you sign a waiver and it will cause no harm to the tank and or, it's fittings. As for the pump give it time to cool off (and also yourself!) and you should be good to go. The pump will heat up and lessen it's life and cause even more moisture.
The same goes for a SCUBA tank! They will at times fill them quite fast and you're getting a tad ripped off as for pressure! As we all know, warm/hot air expands and gives a higher pressure rating. When the tank cools down you really don't have a full 3000 psi. I had my tank filled for the first time today and I had a bit of a walk in cold air back to my car. When I placed it in the back of my car the tank was quite warm. I seriously doubt that in reality I even had 3000 psi let alone the 3200 psi that I asked for. I'll soon find out how many charges I get out of it. My plans are to use the pump until it gets very difficult and then top it off using the tank. I'll soon find out how it all works out. There are not exactly too many dive shops in Chicago and the closest one is a real pain in the ass to drive to due to traffic. I'd rather try to keep the trips as minimal as possible.
~Phil
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
Phil, I'm glad you brought this up. I read this thread before I bought a Hill pump and decided not to go the scuba route. I found that the pump handle is hard to pull up. I think this is because there is a filter on it {I don't have the dry pack yet as it was out of stock}. When I pull the handle up I pause at the top to make sure the air pressure is equalized between atmosphere and pump cylinder. This makes pumping slower, but I feel I get a full charge of air to compress. It also keeps the pump and me from getting hot. When I get over 125 bar, I lean over the pump and use my stomach to push the last 5 inches or so of the handle down. I don't get tired of pumping at all and there is no hand or wrist pain.
I think I read on another thread that you need a special filler adaptor to prevent over charging if you use 3000 psi scuba air.
Ben
I think I read on another thread that you need a special filler adaptor to prevent over charging if you use 3000 psi scuba air.
Ben
Yes, it's indeed a bit of effort with a hand pump and always go slow and fully up to the top of the stroke, pause and, then downward. I've always found the opposite as for the stroke of the pump. No problem pulling it up but getting the stroke all the way back down! (I also have a Hill pump)
Best to get that dry pack as the air that is going into the cylinder is somewhat damp and can ruin the internal mechanisms of your gun over time. That is one advantage of the SCUBA tank in that the air is dry and no, there is no special adapter to prevent over filling. You simply fill it slowly and watch your pressure gauge. When it gets to 200 BAR you're all set to go.
Being at my age I've actually had to simply sit on the pump handle to get the down stroke but it works! It also gets warm (the pump..not my ass) and that is what you want to avoid. When it does simply walk away and give it time to cool down a bit (as well as yourself) and continue. I always give about twenty pumps and then bleed the valve to get rid of any moisture. Twenty more pumps and repeat....bleed the valve and continue. Its a pain in the shoulders, stomach, ass or whatever but it can be done. I think in combination with a SCUBA tank and the pump it can work out quite nice. If no SCUBA and you don't shoot 120+ shots a day you can do well with the pump but by ALL means get that damn dry pack filter. I'm still waiting for mine also so for now......strictly the SCUBA until it arrives and then I will use both. Pump till it gets a bit tiring and then top it off with the tank or, visa versa!
~Phil
Best to get that dry pack as the air that is going into the cylinder is somewhat damp and can ruin the internal mechanisms of your gun over time. That is one advantage of the SCUBA tank in that the air is dry and no, there is no special adapter to prevent over filling. You simply fill it slowly and watch your pressure gauge. When it gets to 200 BAR you're all set to go.
Being at my age I've actually had to simply sit on the pump handle to get the down stroke but it works! It also gets warm (the pump..not my ass) and that is what you want to avoid. When it does simply walk away and give it time to cool down a bit (as well as yourself) and continue. I always give about twenty pumps and then bleed the valve to get rid of any moisture. Twenty more pumps and repeat....bleed the valve and continue. Its a pain in the shoulders, stomach, ass or whatever but it can be done. I think in combination with a SCUBA tank and the pump it can work out quite nice. If no SCUBA and you don't shoot 120+ shots a day you can do well with the pump but by ALL means get that damn dry pack filter. I'm still waiting for mine also so for now......strictly the SCUBA until it arrives and then I will use both. Pump till it gets a bit tiring and then top it off with the tank or, visa versa!
~Phil
Sreading these two last post, it seems that some people can use a hand pump easily and some other cannot.
Or it can depend of the pump: I have absolutely no problem to use my hand pump but it is a Gehmann one, not a Hill.
Concerning the use of a tank and a pump, the best is to first fill with the tank and then if the pressure is not 200bar fill it up with the pump.
Now, the main issue: filling the tank. My experience is that some scuba dive shop do their job well, while some other don't.
The one who do their job well to reaaly fill your tank to 200bar by: avoiding as much as possible to let the tank becoming hot, then wait a while and fill it up to a pressure slightly above 200bar (what is not a problem at all since the tanks are tested at 300bar). The shop I use now has a also water pool where the scuba tank are placed in during the fill up. This avoid the tank to become hot and is a safety in case of accident.
Before going to that shop, I went to another one who was just filling quickly the tank till 200bar without any care. It was also hot and when I was filling my cylinder I only had 180 bar.
Or it can depend of the pump: I have absolutely no problem to use my hand pump but it is a Gehmann one, not a Hill.
Concerning the use of a tank and a pump, the best is to first fill with the tank and then if the pressure is not 200bar fill it up with the pump.
Now, the main issue: filling the tank. My experience is that some scuba dive shop do their job well, while some other don't.
The one who do their job well to reaaly fill your tank to 200bar by: avoiding as much as possible to let the tank becoming hot, then wait a while and fill it up to a pressure slightly above 200bar (what is not a problem at all since the tanks are tested at 300bar). The shop I use now has a also water pool where the scuba tank are placed in during the fill up. This avoid the tank to become hot and is a safety in case of accident.
Before going to that shop, I went to another one who was just filling quickly the tank till 200bar without any care. It was also hot and when I was filling my cylinder I only had 180 bar.
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Visitor from the UK
Thanks to all who responded
Took ages for me to acknowledge but pleased to say I have no problems filling the cylinders of the LP2 with a handpump - good exercise for sure but with my 6"3 frame and too many cakes I manage well -
cheers
Max
cheers
Max