Moment of Truth: Last 200 ms (sights or trigger?)

[Steve Swartz]

Gurus:

It's been a while, but this issue is continually "unsettled." Which is somewhat troublesome, as it is probably the single most critical performance issue in our sport.

Proposition: we shoot in two distinct phases; first- the set-up and approach (which gets you to where you want to be, settled, in the aiming area, front sight in focus, sights aligned, comfy NPA and all that). After the set-up and approach, well, there you are, admiring your hold.

At some point you enter Phase Two, which involves actually firing the shot. Specifically, I'm atalking about the last 200ms before the pellet exits the muzzle and there is nothing left for you to do that can affect the outcome of that shot.

During this Moment of Truth (MoT), is it "Potato" or "Potahto?"

Do the sights drive the triggerk, or does the trigger drive the sights?

A. Sights->Trigger:
We focus on front sight, consciously work on perfecting alignment, and allow our "subconscious" (i.e., "in the zone") to release the shot an appropriate amount of lead time ahead of perfect sight picture; or

B. Trigger->Sights:
We focus on the front sight, consciously work on perfecting alignment and then start increasing pressure, relying on our "subconscious" (see above) to get the sight picture perfect the appropriate amount of lead time ahead of when the shot will clear the muzzle; or

C. None of this matters:
Maintain perfect sight alignment while holding int eh ten ring, and apply pressure to break the shot while keeping the muzzle painted on the ten ring. No subconscious required; or

D. Essay:
Write in your alternative explanification here?!

What say you Gurus, Gadflies, Students, and Philosophizers of the Sport?

Steve Swartz

[Ernie Rodriguez]

Have stance,arm muscle memory and sight picture in b'eye area. Bring focus on front sight and at same time start and commit sustained trigger pull for surprise shot. As long as front sight is in proper alignment with rear sight the shot WILL be a DECENT shot. The longer you hold the arm/sight alignment -the harder the trigger will seem. Cheers.

[Mike M.]

Ernie is right. The trigger press buildup should be automatic....you start it, then let pressure build until the shot fires. The sights are your primary concern. Keep those aligned and on target, let the shot fire itself.

[bryan]

steve, whats a gadflies?

picking time! I think they are all important at different phases of your developement.
no time now for an essay.

the last 200ms is carried out in the manner that you have prepared for it. thus you can do everything 100%, but if you prepare incorrectly, that last 200ms will stuff up a potentially good shot, or if prepared well, drive in a not so good shot.
or have no effect on the outcome.

for those that have use of a scatt etc can get carried away with this time period. what happens in this time is a direct result of what you are thinking. so to modify this period of time, needs a change in thinking. not trying to control this time frame consciously.

probably not what you are looking for!

imho

bryan

[AAlex]

I don't subscribe to either theory.
Note that I don't claim that either is incorrect, but I do think that different techniques work for different people.

To me, the above theories did not work for the following reasons:
If the trigger drives the sights, and we "commited" to the shot and increasing the pressure and keep the sights aligned - everything works well until now and then the shooter will see misaligned sights, or have an "excursion" into the 8 ring too close to the moment of release, and the subconscious goes "OH SHIT!!! we're about to shoot - fix sight alignment NOW!!!" - we have a jerk.

If the sights drive the trigger, we have exactly the opposite situation: as soon as the subconscious notices good sight picture with stable hold, it goes "OH SHIT!!! we're in sweet spot - pull the trigger NOW!!!" - and we poor trigger execution.


My current technique is to try to integrate both sight alignment and trigger control into a feedback loop of a sort, where they both affect each other and eventually converge on a shot, eliminating any urgency as in above. Note that up to now I have not seen a significant advantage with any particular strategy, I might as well change my views when I practice every strategy more.


Also, to support bryan's point, I view the shot process as landing a plane - you go through checklists and various motions before landing, and if you do everything right during the approach, the plane will land on its own with no effort on your part. However, if the approach was a mess, trying to fix things when you're over the landing strip will result in aestheticaly displeasing (at best) landing.

[Mikey]

For me I have found using the trigger to pull the front sight straight back through the rear sight helps.

Which in your terms is use the trigger to steer the sights - option B

I have tried the other way but I have found for me it is better to have my mind actively thinking and doing something, in this case concentrating on the focus of the front sight and pulling it straight back through the rear sight. If I my mind wasn't ACTIVELY engaged in a POSITIVE thought I have a tendancy to wander off and think about other things.

Mike

[Mike S-J]

First of I consider myself still in the 'student' phase (but I am sure I could mature into a gadfly :).

Consequently I find myself recognising, and partaking in, all of Steve's options. When I am properly settled and shooting well I can initiate phase 2 whilst ignoring that programme and have an almost "out-of-body" experience as I hear the pop and see the hole in the 10. I know its happened. I can't force it to happen.

All to often (and especially when stress / trying too hard creeps into the mix) the trigger becomes the center of my focus and everything goes "t*ts up".

Retrospectively I can analyse all of this: what I want to know from the silver-backs is how/when does the prospective analysis drop in?

If Steve is asking this question I suspect it is something one learns to live with rather than fully master?

M.

[bryan]

Hi, mike s-j

what you are discribing is normal. but not really enough information for much help.
work on confidence knowing if you are settled, it will be easy and enjoyable. avoid things that are unsettling, eg results.

even the best have difficult days. %#it happens!

for you it is very important to make lots notes on how you feel, etc. something to fall back on.

imho

bryan

[2650 Plus]

First let me say that I try not to theorise. I really try to report how I shoot a good shot.I do not subscribe to trigger does sights are sights affect trigger. I hold that trigger is started and left alone to complete its task while rhe mind moves on to the next step . Hold the pistol as still as you can in the aiming area. The mind moves on again causing the eye to focus on the front sight and concentrating on perfecting sight allignment until after the pistol fires. Gunny Zins seams to be saying about the same thing. Im not sure but the russian coach posts on pilkguns .com talks about the same thing. That is start the trigger finger moving first. I may aggre with Steve on a few points. speaking of the instintive firing of the shot . If you train long enough starting the trigger first , you may find ,as I did that far too many shots are ending up in the 10 and x ring than can be accounted for by hold alone. Steve, If you are going to the match Colorado Springs.please take a bit of advise. Stablize your training and start practiceing how you are going to shoot that match. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[jackh]

There are as many descriptions of shooting the shot as there are shooters. Descriptions via keyboard and screen are hurting for interpretation with most of us. But there are a few common denominators within every description.
Here's my list. No doubt others will "interpret" it.

1. You will have your eye and attention on the front sight.
2. You will align the sights with your eye.
3. You will stand and hold naturally and as still as you can.
4. You will acknowledge and accept your wobble.
5. You will use trigger control.
6. You will exercise mental concentration.
7. You will follow through.

And before you perform from this list, you will have specific preparations to do as a setup.

[2650 Plus]

What he just said except you have to start the trigger moving early on. Good shooting Bill Horton

[2650 Plus]

When I first started shooting I was searching for good information about pistol marksmanship. The army field manual was completely usless,so i searched the post library and found a book written by a police captain named Paul B Weston. I think the name of the book was" Pistol Shooting Today" Weston refered to trigger control as "Wishing the shot off". Can it be that we arent discovering any new concepts, But just relearning what was known two or three generations ago. If that should be so we have a consistant failure to pass on hard won infornatrion to the next generation. Steve, hang in there. Also Ed and Fred And all of you who post Good shooting Bill Horton

[scerir]

B. Trigger->Sights:
We focus on the front sight, consciously work on perfecting alignment and then start increasing pressure, relying on our "subconscious" to get the sight picture perfect the appropriate amount of lead time ahead of when the shot will clear the muzzle;

Not a 'guru'. But let me ask this. Following that B case (trigger ->sights)what happens if our 'subconscious' realizes that, for whatever reason, the sights picture in the last 200 ms is not perfect, or that he is not properly focused on the front sight? I think he should abort the shot, or wait for a better moment (delay the shot), or keep on pulling the trigger hoping for a miracle.

Now, if the above is consistent, it seems to me that the case B (trigger -> sights) is only 70% true and valid, not 100% true and valid.

-serafino

[Spencer]

Could it be...

D/ None of this matters:
Maintain good sight alignment while holding in the area, and apply pressure straight back to the eye to break the shot without knowing exactly when the shot will be released.

Provided the body is up to the task:
D1/ training to develop the techniques + practice to make the training 'routine' + thinking about the process rather than the outcome = small group with a consistent placement
D2/ small group with a consistent placement + sight adjustment = desired outcome

Regards,
Spencer

[PETE S]

Two thoughts:

1. Shooting a ten consistantly is a system, trigger control and sight alignment are two processes that must come togetehr at the same time fo the system to work. I tend to train working one, then the other and then putting them together.

2. Our descriptions are ways to make sense to us how these things work. I like Zinns description because he brings sight alignment and trigger together and marries them into a system. Most descriptions do not.
But I remember Erich Buljung saying that trigger squeeze, or what ever action you want to use to describe the forefinger on the trigger is a "controlled jerk."

Some descriptions make the trigger action sound like you are increasing pressure for some long period of time. My reality ( or my interpretatin of it) is that the actual time moving the trigger is relatively short.

I read an article published by the ISSF News that describes three different types of shooters, based on studying NOPTEL results. They were "Hold Shooters," "Optimising Shooters," and " Reaction Shooters" All Styles have won gold.

[IPshooter]

Two thoughts:

I read an article published by the ISSF News that describes three different types of shooters, based on studying NOPTEL results. They were "Hold Shooters," "Optimising Shooters," and " Reaction Shooters" All Styles have won gold.

Pete,

That sounds like a good article. Do you have a link?

Stan

[Steve Swartz]

Pete:

Double dittos . . . those "three types of shooters" sounds very clarifying perhaps . . .

Steve

[PETE S]

This article explains three types of shooters and how the take the shot...

http://www.issfnews.com/newsmag/newsmag ... g=1&page=8

[bryan]

someones not going to like that article!!!

maybe they could of indicated that specific types/styles of shooters are more suited to different competitions?

cant wait to see what they put in part 2

bryan

[Richard H]

someones not going to like that article!!!

maybe they could of indicated that specific types/styles of shooters are more suited to different competitions?

cant wait to see what they put in part 2

bryan

Thats not overly new. At least one guy on our national team was trying it for awhile. I tried it myself and when it works it works really well but when it doesn't I found snow bunnies were the norm (3 and such). I was at our provincals with the National team guy who was trying it and he actually got a 0 it both AP and FP.

I would like to try it again and give it a little better of a chance to be successful (only tried it for about a month or so last time).

I also never tried it on the rika to actually see the progress, will have to do that this time around if I try it agian.