TargetTalk

Why are match air pistols only around 500fps and not more?
Thanks for the input,Sean

sean wrote:Why are match air pistols only around 500fps and not more?
Thanks for the input,Sean

Because that where they produce the best groups. Air rifle are in the 570 ish-590 ish range for the same reason.

Higher velocities equate to less drop, reloading ballistics tables clearly show that but with increased velocity comes increased energy so I think recoil minimisation may also be a factor.

Cheers

Pete

Calculating recoil energy http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/shoo ... 18,00.html

ausdiver99 wrote:Higher velocities equate to less drop, reloading ballistics tables clearly show that but with increased velocity comes increased energy so I think recoil minimisation may also be a factor.

Cheers

Pete

Calculating recoil energy http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/shoo ... 18,00.html

At 10 m trajectory is flat. reloading trajectory tables really don't play into 10m AP and AR.

An other explanantion for this could could be a historical one:

According to an elder book on shooting of mine, published in German, airgun shooting became an olympic discipline only following WWII. The allies prohibited at that time the productions of weapons in Germany with the exception of airguns which were not allowed to exceed a certain energy - the famous 7 Joules. Germans have always been good "mechanics".. (Actually, the manufacturer name FWB relates to "Feinwerktechnik" which is "precision mechanics" in English. See the company history: http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modules ... PageId=106).
Since german products have (and still seem to do so today) dominated this very market niche, the reason for the fps rate could be just that simple.

BTW: There is a nice wikipedia-article on airguns: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airguns

ASA wrote:An other explanantion for this could could be a historical one:

According to an elder book on shooting of mine, published in German, airgun shooting became an olympic discipline only following WWII. The allies prohibited at that time the productions of weapons in Germany with the exception of airguns which were not allowed to exceed a certain energy - the famous 7 Joules. Germans have always been good "mechanics".. (Actually, the manufacturer name FWB relates to "Feinwerktechnik" which is "precision mechanics" in English. See the company history: http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modules ... PageId=106).
Since german products have (and still seem to do so today) dominated this very market niche, the reason for the fps rate could be just that simple.

BTW: There is a nice wikipedia-article on airguns: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airguns

Good point

Mmmm I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps the 7J rule applied to air pistols 50 years ago and thus the MV ceiling, but if there is a competitive advantage to be had in having higher MV's then I'm sure the manufacturers would have cranked up their speeds by now. This is an interesting thread so I've fired off an e-mail to a couple of manufacturers to see what they have to say about this.

Cheers

Pete

ausdiver99 wrote:Mmmm I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps the 7J rule applied to air pistols 50 years ago and thus the MV ceiling, but if there is a competitive advantage to be had in having higher MV's then I'm sure the manufacturers would have cranked up their speeds by now. This is an interesting thread so I've fired off an e-mail to a couple of manufacturers to see what they have to say about this.

Yes, please let us know their response.
Another possibility - having started with the 7J limit and ~ 500 fps, the manufacturers now have CA pistols with one hole accuracy and cylinders that hold enough air for several matches. Any significant increase in velocity would result in a decrease in shots per cylinder (less than 60?) or a larger cylinder, and likely no improvement in accuracy. Certainly the FT air rifles have excellent accuracy at 800-1000 fps and longer ranges, but at the cost of large cylinders and fewer shots per cylinder.

Fred

ausdiver99 wrote:... 7J rule applied to air pistols 50 years ago ...

In Germany, energy below 7,5 Joule warrants an "F" for free of licence.
Otherwise you would need a permit to own, buy and use an air pistol or an airgun.

So at least for Germany, this is still a valid requirement.

kind regards

Axel

ASA wrote:

ausdiver99 wrote:... 7J rule applied to air pistols 50 years ago ...

In Germany, energy below 7,5 Joule warrants an "F" for free of licence.
Otherwise you would need a permit to own, buy and use an air pistol or an airgun.

It's similar in the UK where the limit is 6ft lb (12 for air rifles) and, I believe, Canada where it is 500ft/sec.

I found the best groups for my air pistol was around 550 fps. this is were I started and then shot a buch of groups while adjusting the velocity.

Did not check where I ended up but I stoped when I get a one hole group.

Great, this has sparked some interesting thoughts! I e-mailed Aeron and Pardini. I recollectsomeone mentioned that the Aeron pistols are somewhat lower MV, under 500 fps so I thougth their views would be interesting.

No responses yet ...

cheers

Pete

Thanks for all the feedback! Now how about some shooting tips?

Seariously, Sean

Hello Sean,

you could try the link to our trainer page:
http://www.svlondorf1969.de/Trainer.html


The references are mostly in German, but you find references in English as well:
In row 1 a nice simulator for pistol and rifle written by a danish programmer (in English of course) and some games (shotgun and, politically probably less correct, one on the CCI site).

If you follow the Australian, Candian and US-flags respectively, you find nice material (hopefully) as well.

If your language skill in German exceeds a basic level, you might want to try these:
The material in German includes issues such as "Mental Training" - nice one on a bow-shooting site and lots of rifle-related hints. Really nice is material for pistol shooters on grip and trigger adjustment (SG-Pullenreuth) and pistol training on a Bavarian site (follow BSSB).

best regards

Axel

HI everyone, a response from Aeron follows.

Cheers


Pete

Hello Peter,


500 fps would be quite a lot, factory settings for muzzle velocity for most of the manufacturers is about 450fps (we have 420fps).
The reason for this speed is that, when you are shooting at 10 meters the pellet still has minimum trajectory (couple of mm) so there is no reason to have higher muzzle velocity.
Other reason is number of shots that you have available, with muzzle velocity from our 420 to about 450 fps you can get about 150 - 160 shots.

ausdiver99 wrote:HI everyone, a response from Aeron follows.

Cheers


Pete

Hello Peter,


500 fps would be quite a lot, factory settings for muzzle velocity for most of the manufacturers is about 450fps (we have 420fps).
The reason for this speed is that, when you are shooting at 10 meters the pellet still has minimum trajectory (couple of mm) so there is no reason to have higher muzzle velocity.
Other reason is number of shots that you have available, with muzzle velocity from our 420 to about 450 fps you can get about 150 - 160 shots.

Now that's a coincidence. I was running an air pistol range today with about 50 shooters. The only problem was with the only Aeron on the range. The pellets were so slow that the paper roll on the Sius Ascor targets was being torn instead of cleanly punched. This was working its way down into the rollers and causing a jam.

When I see Aerons and Gamos (luckily none of those today) I know that I am going to have to use my "hospital" lanes.

David Levene wrote:Now that's a coincidence. I was running an air pistol range today with about 50 shooters. The only problem was with the only Aeron on the range. The pellets were so slow that the paper roll on the Sius Ascor targets was being torn instead of cleanly punched. This was working its way down into the rollers and causing a jam.

When I see Aerons and Gamos (luckily none of those today) I know that I am going to have to use my "hospital" lanes.

We have target paper tearing/jamming troubles from low velocity on our Sius Ascor 10m targets, Sydney, but I have not noticed any particular brand as being major culprits - we never seem to have any trouble with velocities above 350 fps.

Spencer

David Levene wrote:

ausdiver99 wrote:HI everyone, a response from Aeron follows.

Cheers


Pete

Hello Peter,


500 fps would be quite a lot, factory settings for muzzle velocity for most of the manufacturers is about 450fps (we have 420fps).
The reason for this speed is that, when you are shooting at 10 meters the pellet still has minimum trajectory (couple of mm) so there is no reason to have higher muzzle velocity.
Other reason is number of shots that you have available, with muzzle velocity from our 420 to about 450 fps you can get about 150 - 160 shots.

Now that's a coincidence. I was running an air pistol range today with about 50 shooters. The only problem was with the only Aeron on the range. The pellets were so slow that the paper roll on the Sius Ascor targets was being torn instead of cleanly punched. This was working its way down into the rollers and causing a jam.

When I see Aerons and Gamos (luckily none of those today) I know that I am going to have to use my "hospital" lanes.

I don't know where that Aeron guy got his info. Back in '98, when I first got my Morini 162E, I did a bit of testing on my Oehler 35P chronograph.

With a half full (estimated) cylinder, using H&N Finale Match 4.49 .51g pellets, I got a ten shot group with a high of 519fps, and a low of 511fps. This gave me an extreme spread of 8fps., a mean of 514fps., and a standard deviation of 2. With a full charge, (2700 psi), I got a high of 513fps., a low of 504fps., an extreme spread of 9fps., mean of 509fps., and again, a standard deviation of 2.

I found it unusual, that the velocities were a bit higher with the partially empty cylinder, but the points I'd like to make, are that all velocities were over 500fps. with the regulator at the original factory setting, and these low standard deviations are unheard of in cartridge firearms, hence the remarkable accuracy.

Paul

Fred Mannis wrote:Any significant increase in velocity would result in a decrease in shots per cylinder (less than 60?) or a larger cylinder, and likely no improvement in accuracy.

But what it could do is reduce the travel time in the barrel, reducing the effect of a poor follow-through.

I thought the Aerons were slower than most from another post but I am certain our Pardini and Match Guns are well over 500 fps. Oh well, out with the chrono. Still nothing from Pardini...

Pete