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AP absorver
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:41 pm
by Nano
To the forum:
I want to know which pisto dont have absorver.
I am talking about the absorver in air pistol, the internal mechanical piece who go in the opposite direction of the pellet (not muzzle compensator).
I know FWB p44 have
Steyr lp10 have
Walther LP 300 have
Morini dont have
Hammerli AP40?
Pardini K2?
Tesro PA10?
Benelli Kite?
Thank you,
Nano
I Think You Mean "Absorber"
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:01 pm
by Mark Briggs
Nano - I think what you're looking for is which pistols don't have "absorbers" rather than absorvers. Yes, I know, english isn't your first language so please forgive me if it seems like I'm giving you a hard time - that is not my intent. I am only hoping to make it easier for others to reply to your question.
The ones on your list (and some additional ones) that I know about are:
AP40 - no absorber
K2 - no absorber
LP-2 - no absorber (likewise for the LP-1)
I don't know if you're thinking of basing a purchase decision on whether a pistol has an absorber or not. If this is the case you should shoot both types of pistol before making your decision. I personally don't see a lot of advantage to having an absorber (maybe that's why I sold my LP-10). I know with my CM162EI Short the gun has so little movement upon firing that I don't think an absorber would add anything to its performance. But that is only my opinion, which is of no value to any other human except me! ;-)
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:56 pm
by GaryBF
FWIW, the Anschutz LP@ air pistols have a recoil absorber which is mechanically identical to the Steyr LP-10.
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:15 pm
by greblleM
I'm almost 100% sure that the AP40 has an absorber.
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:12 pm
by James
Kite no absorber.
Re: AP absorver
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:40 am
by Elmas
Nano wrote:To the forum:
I am talking about the absorver in air pistol, the internal mechanical piece who go in the opposite direction of the pellet (not muzzle compensator).
Tesro PA10?
Thank you,
Nano
The TESRO PA10 has both a Recoil Absorber and a Compensator.
Elmas
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:12 am
by JulianY
Are there any articles / reviews on how these thing work?
Julian
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:43 am
by James
a weight equal to the pellet exit forces is moved in the opposite direction.
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:33 am
by Richard H
JulianY wrote:Are there any articles / reviews on how these thing work?
Julian
Whenever a force is applied there is an equal and opposite force applied. So a force applied to a pellet to go down the barrel exerts an equal force rearward, if there is no absorber the force is applied to the pistol, if there is an absorber the force is applied to a moving mass, so the rearward applied force in theory is reduced or eliminated.
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:51 am
by Steve Swartz
Total opinion follows . . .
In theory, one would think recoil reducers (absorbers) would be a neat thing.
In practice, what effect do they have on accuracy/precision?
In practice, what effect do they have on reliability/consistency?
If I were shooting a Boys anti-tank gun, then the reliabiolity/accuracy loss would be more than made up for by the ergonomic impact of reduced recoil- so it would be a net plus.
A .50 pistol . . . worthwhile tradeoff.
A .45 ACP pistol . . . a wash or not worth it.
A .177 air pistol? Why on earth would you add more flailing around bits for a "recoil reducer?"
Me, personally, just my opinion, your mielage may vary, standard disclaimer applies- the presence of a shock absorber on a competition air pistol would probably be more of a negative than a positive.
[not to be confused with a muzzle compensator which contributes positively to accuracy and consistency]
Steve Swartz
Recoil Absorber
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:43 am
by Francesco
I don't want to discuss if it is good or not (our pistol don't have and also our future pistols will not have) but I want people look at facts. The fact is that the world record in Men air pistol was shoot by PYZHIANOV Sergei (RUS) in Munich on 13.10.89 with a steyr LP1 CO2 with a speed of the pellet of 180 - 185 m/s. Since 1989 many shooters went close to this record but was not able to break. If the absorber is so good and give advantage to shooters why the world record is still from 1989??
From my point of view this means that pulling the trigger in the correct way and having a pistol with a good trigger is still the most important thing for higer results.
It will be nice to read opinions.
Thanks
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:48 am
by Francesco
I forgott:
Morini don't have
Hammerli AP40 don't have
Pardini K2 don't have
Tesro PA10 don't have
Benelli Kite don't have
walther absorber is also an agreement with FWB.
The problem of the absorber is that one patent is from FWB were they patent an absorber that works with air, the other patent is from Steyr and they patent an absorber that works mechanically with lever and spring. This means nobody can have an absorber without coming to a deal with FWB or Steyr because they patented the only ways an absorber can work.
Re: Recoil Absorber
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:53 am
by David Levene
Francesco wrote:From my point of view this means that pulling the trigger in the correct way and having a pistol with a good trigger is still the most important thing for higer results.
I don't think you'll get too many arguments on that Francesco.
As for Sergei Pyzhianov's World Record, that must go down as being the greatest and most resilient shooting record ever.
Re: Recoil Absorber
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:47 pm
by Nano
Francesco wrote:.....The fact is that the world record in Men air pistol was shoot by PYZHIANOV Sergei (RUS) in Munich on 13.10.89 with a steyr LP1 CO2 with a speed of the pellet of 180 - 185 m/s.
The idea about the absorbers is intact, only one correction in the make of the pistol, World record in event AP60 in 1989 on WCF - 593 he has made using a pistol FWB 2 №09999 (pistol is made in 1986). SergeyPYZHIANOV also has made the Russian record (595+104,5) - on competitions in Dortmund (1995) - used pistol STEYR LP1 (gas balon).
data: ISSF Headquarters
Nano
Re: Recoil Absorber
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:02 pm
by Richard H
Francesco wrote:I don't want to discuss if it is good or not (our pistol don't have and also our future pistols will not have) but I want people look at facts. The fact is that the world record in Men air pistol was shoot by PYZHIANOV Sergei (RUS) in Munich on 13.10.89 with a steyr LP1 CO2 with a speed of the pellet of 180 - 185 m/s. Since 1989 many shooters went close to this record but was not able to break. If the absorber is so good and give advantage to shooters why the world record is still from 1989??
From my point of view this means that pulling the trigger in the correct way and having a pistol with a good trigger is still the most important thing for higer results.
It will be nice to read opinions.
Thanks
To be fair to the competition then the same can be said of the electronic trigger. If it is so good why has the Morini not broken the world record? the answer to that question is simple the guns don't shoot the scores the shooter does. (The Morini trigger is excellent by the way and a pure pleasure to shoot).
That's why my post when explaining it said "in theory". We've come to a place where the changes are more about feel, and ergonomics more than accuracy, the guns can all put 60 pellets through a ragged hole when clamped, so on there own they can shoot 600 easy. So there is no much more accuracy that can be milked out of that part of the system, all that leaves are intangibles such as electronic triggers, compensators, porting and recoil absorbers that
may reduce errors by the shooter or make it more comfortable to shoot.[/u]
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:07 pm
by Richard H
Francesco wrote:I forgott:
Morini don't have
Hammerli AP40 don't have
Pardini K2 don't have
Tesro PA10 don't have
Benelli Kite don't have
walther absorber is also an agreement with FWB.
The problem of the absorber is that one patent is from FWB were they patent an absorber that works with air, the other patent is from Steyr and they patent an absorber that works mechanically with lever and spring. This means nobody can have an absorber without coming to a deal with FWB or Steyr because they patented the only ways an absorber can work.
What is the problem, I'm sure Morini has patents, sounds a little like sour grapes. I'm sure if Steyr want to use your electronic trigger you wouldn't be very happy (I know I would though)
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:37 am
by JulianY
Richard H wrote:
What is the problem, I'm sure Morini has patents, sounds a little like sour grapes. I'm sure if Steyr want to use your electronic trigger you wouldn't be very happy (I know I would though)
I think an LP10E is only a matter of time.
J
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:45 am
by Francesco
Richard H wrote:Francesco wrote:I forgott:
Morini don't have
Hammerli AP40 don't have
Pardini K2 don't have
Tesro PA10 don't have
Benelli Kite don't have
walther absorber is also an agreement with FWB.
The problem of the absorber is that one patent is from FWB were they patent an absorber that works with air, the other patent is from Steyr and they patent an absorber that works mechanically with lever and spring. This means nobody can have an absorber without coming to a deal with FWB or Steyr because they patented the only ways an absorber can work.
What is the problem, I'm sure Morini has patents, sounds a little like sour grapes. I'm sure if Steyr want to use your electronic trigger you wouldn't be very happy (I know I would though)
No we don't have patents. We was first on precompressed air pistol, now everybody has. We was the first with manometers on the bottles, now everybody has. Electronic trigger the same, everybody can try and do. Who says that Steyr doesn't have an electronic trigger in mind. If you have a steyr LP5 look at the bottom of the frame, there is a hole the same diameter of our solenoid, guess why. I personally find that patents in sport shooting is only against the shooters and not an advantage to the factories. If I see how much cooperation there is between car company and I look shooting I must say we have a lot to learn from others.
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:03 am
by Axel
Francesco wrote:Richard H wrote:Francesco wrote:I forgott:
Morini don't have
Hammerli AP40 don't have
Pardini K2 don't have
Tesro PA10 don't have
Benelli Kite don't have
walther absorber is also an agreement with FWB.
The problem of the absorber is that one patent is from FWB were they patent an absorber that works with air, the other patent is from Steyr and they patent an absorber that works mechanically with lever and spring. This means nobody can have an absorber without coming to a deal with FWB or Steyr because they patented the only ways an absorber can work.
What is the problem, I'm sure Morini has patents, sounds a little like sour grapes. I'm sure if Steyr want to use your electronic trigger you wouldn't be very happy (I know I would though)
No we don't have patents. We was first on precompressed air pistol, now everybody has. We was the first with manometers on the bottles, now everybody has. Electronic trigger the same, everybody can try and do. Who says that Steyr doesn't have an electronic trigger in mind. If you have a steyr LP5 look at the bottom of the frame, there is a hole the same diameter of our solenoid, guess why. I personally find that patents in sport shooting is only against the shooters and not an advantage to the factories. If I see how much cooperation there is between car company and I look shooting I must say we have a lot to learn from others.
Well said Francesco!
I'm shooting with CM 84E Free Pistol and CM 162E Air Pistol - excellent pistols with exellent triggers. :-) Absorbers are certanly nice, but they will not make you shoot better, as said here before.
Cheers,
Axel
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:09 am
by Elmas
Francesco wrote:I forgott:
Morini don't have
Hammerli AP40 don't have
Pardini K2 don't have
Tesro PA10 don't have
Benelli Kite don't have
walther absorber is also an agreement with FWB.
The problem of the absorber is that one patent is from FWB were they patent an absorber that works with air, the other patent is from Steyr and they patent an absorber that works mechanically with lever and spring. This means nobody can have an absorber without coming to a deal with FWB or Steyr because they patented the only ways an absorber can work.
Francesco , I wrote to the TESRO people and they informed me that their PA 10 has a recoil absorber. The Tesro owner/manufacturer is the ex senior Walther engineer.
BTW I go along with Steve Swartz , thinking that recoil absorbers on air pistols are of no real benefit and just add more that can go wrong.
But I disagree with Steve Swartz re: his opinion about Muzzle Compensators. If your wrist is locked and your grip is firm ; no felt muzzle flip...not an iota ! I still find these techno marvels superfluous.
Now if Sergei Pyzhianov was in his top form in 2005 and not 1989, and set his amazing record with a pistol that had both a recoil absorber and muzzle compensator together with an electronic trigger! It would be very difficult for those who claim the dismissible value of these new devices to find anyone who agrees with them !
Elmas
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