I am looking to get a 22 but I am stuck between these two. Part of the problem is I will probably have to chouse without fireing either, unfortunatly i know no anyone with either. Perhaps i gould get to muic next year but that will be too late.
Pedagree is an issue, I am sure the sp20 has won more comp's then the ssp but the ssp is very new so again I am not sure what direction to go.
I know that such threads should probably be banned but you folks may think of thing i have not thought of yet.
Any thoughts Tycho
J
Walther SSP versus Hammerli SP20
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
-
Fortitudo Dei
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:30 pm
- Location: New Zealand
I would be inclined to go for the Walther SSP. Yes the pistol has yet to fully prove itself, but it is a very recent design which was extensively tested before being released. Most importantly, Walther have put a lot of time, effort and money into bringing this pistol to the market and so should be willing to support it for some time to come with parts and servicing.
The SP20 had some good ideas, but it was riddled with design flaws. Yes - some people have had success with them, but there are also numerous stories of frames cracking and feeding problems. Most of the people I know who own them have had real difficulties with them. Run a keyword search on the target talk archive on "SP20" and you'll find plenty of stories of people who have had major headaches with their pistols.
The sad thing is that Hammerli once had a great reputation for excellent designs and providing fantastic levels of service. I have heard a number of stories from some of the "old timers" in our club who had minor problems with their Hammerli pistols (Standard 208’s and FP’s) back in the 1970s. They sent their pistols to Switzerland for servicing, and had them returned to them not only with the problems fixed, but the guns had been given a complete overhaul with new springs and parts fitted throughout - all at no cost. Now Hammerli is no longer - the rot started setting in around the time that the SP20 was released. The Swiss factory was then purchased and shut down by Walther. I wouldn’t expect Walther to be particularly keen to support Hammerli products when they have their own designs to push.
The SP20 had some good ideas, but it was riddled with design flaws. Yes - some people have had success with them, but there are also numerous stories of frames cracking and feeding problems. Most of the people I know who own them have had real difficulties with them. Run a keyword search on the target talk archive on "SP20" and you'll find plenty of stories of people who have had major headaches with their pistols.
The sad thing is that Hammerli once had a great reputation for excellent designs and providing fantastic levels of service. I have heard a number of stories from some of the "old timers" in our club who had minor problems with their Hammerli pistols (Standard 208’s and FP’s) back in the 1970s. They sent their pistols to Switzerland for servicing, and had them returned to them not only with the problems fixed, but the guns had been given a complete overhaul with new springs and parts fitted throughout - all at no cost. Now Hammerli is no longer - the rot started setting in around the time that the SP20 was released. The Swiss factory was then purchased and shut down by Walther. I wouldn’t expect Walther to be particularly keen to support Hammerli products when they have their own designs to push.
Walther is showing the Hämmerli's in their German website.
http://www.carl-walther.info/dev2/index ... id=3&uid=3
Take a look at the Pardini SP New also.
http://www.carl-walther.info/dev2/index ... id=3&uid=3
Take a look at the Pardini SP New also.
I would second the recomendation for the Pardini.
Hammerli was legendary for the support they gave pistols they hadn't made in decades. Walther IMHO is notorious for NOT providing long term support for their pistols. The MIT pistol team had a a couple of older GSP's in the mid to late 80's. According to the Coach at the time, there was some part that was weak, and tended to break after extensive use. They redesigned the pistol and the part, but when they used up the stock of spares for the weak part, that was it. Their attitude was that if you got ten years of use out of the pistols, it was time to buy some new ones and scrap the old ones.
I had an LP3 and a CP1 air pistol, and the same thing happened. Once they came out with the CP2, the support for the CP1 was very short-lived. Once they discontinued the LP3, it wasn't long before parts became unavailable. It may be easier to find parts and support for them in Europe, but not in the US.
They may make great pistols, but I will NEVER buy a Walther.
Hammerli was legendary for the support they gave pistols they hadn't made in decades. Walther IMHO is notorious for NOT providing long term support for their pistols. The MIT pistol team had a a couple of older GSP's in the mid to late 80's. According to the Coach at the time, there was some part that was weak, and tended to break after extensive use. They redesigned the pistol and the part, but when they used up the stock of spares for the weak part, that was it. Their attitude was that if you got ten years of use out of the pistols, it was time to buy some new ones and scrap the old ones.
I had an LP3 and a CP1 air pistol, and the same thing happened. Once they came out with the CP2, the support for the CP1 was very short-lived. Once they discontinued the LP3, it wasn't long before parts became unavailable. It may be easier to find parts and support for them in Europe, but not in the US.
They may make great pistols, but I will NEVER buy a Walther.
-
James Hurr
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:03 am
- Location: Australia
.22 Pistol
In an effort to be of some help:
What do you plan to use it for?
What have you used up to now?
What do you like and dislike so far?
Why is your choice limited to SSP and SP20?
What do you plan to use it for?
What have you used up to now?
What do you like and dislike so far?
Why is your choice limited to SSP and SP20?
-
non-Walther
Have had Walthers. won´t have one again...
Yes, that is my consensus too.Gwhite wrote:
They may make great pistols, but I will NEVER buy a Walther.
Have owned and used two GSPs, one CP2, one Lp3. No, was not satisfied with finnish, triggers and ergonimy.
I had one leacking LP3 returned to the factory. When it was returned it was still leacking!
Thumbs down for the arms company that used to be located in Ulm, Donau.
I have two GSP's from the mid 80's no problems with either, I've had no problem getting spares (which I have yet had to use except the ejector in the .32). I also have a Walther FP which works well with no issues. All have been shot extensively.
Julian I wouldn't hesitate to buy an SSP. After returning from the Walther factory I'm lusting for one myself and definately see one in the future for me. Personally I've never been crazy about the SP20 but my understanding from Walther is that they will be continuing and supporting the Hammerli product line.
Note: as for the malfunctioning Walther FP's some of the problems seem to have been caused from the screw that holds the battery door on. It is a little long and if tightened too much would actually put pressure on a compent on the circuit board and break a connection on the board. So if you still have a working one becareful when screwing the door back on (its a battery door and not hopld 100's of pounds so no need to tighten it like a gorilla) and you might want to take a little of the length of the screw.
Julian I wouldn't hesitate to buy an SSP. After returning from the Walther factory I'm lusting for one myself and definately see one in the future for me. Personally I've never been crazy about the SP20 but my understanding from Walther is that they will be continuing and supporting the Hammerli product line.
Note: as for the malfunctioning Walther FP's some of the problems seem to have been caused from the screw that holds the battery door on. It is a little long and if tightened too much would actually put pressure on a compent on the circuit board and break a connection on the board. So if you still have a working one becareful when screwing the door back on (its a battery door and not hopld 100's of pounds so no need to tighten it like a gorilla) and you might want to take a little of the length of the screw.
-
JulianY
- Posts: 350
- Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:26 am
- Location: A british shooting refugee in Amsterdam
- Contact:
Re: .22 Pistol
Pricision target events as 10 and 25 m not rapid fireJames Hurr wrote:In an effort to be of some help:
What do you plan to use it for?
the list is long but includes Hammerli 208 280 , DES 69, the perviable ruger ruger, s&w revolvers ....What have you used up to now?
What do you like and dislike so far?
Hate revolvers - some people love en, not me
Like good anotomical grips
Like long sight radius
Love my Styer LP10
Why is your choice limited to SSP and SP20?
It's not, it actualy limited to SSP ;) but I am trying to be open minded because i have never had one in my hand. plan to look at the pardini as well after remarks above
Does any one know who did the grip on the SSP? I know Morini doit the walther P99 grip
-
Nicole Hamilton
- Posts: 477
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:17 pm
- Location: Redmond, Washington, USA
- Contact:
Re: .22 Pistol
There's not much substitute for actually handling a gun. I was somewhat torn between the Hammerli SP20 and the Pardini SP six years ago when I decided to move up from my beginner's gun, a S&W 22A. But once I got a chance to dry fire each, the choice was obvious: The Pardini was much more comfortable. That was my first Pardini. I now own 4 of them: an SP, an HP, an SP New and a K22. Fantastic guns with wonderful triggers. I recommend them without hesitation.JulianY wrote:Why is your choice limited to SSP and SP20?
It's not, it actualy limited to SSP ;) but I am trying to be open minded because i have never had one in my hand. plan to look at the pardini as well after remarks above
Hi,
If I may jump in here..
A RINK grip makes the SSP better. Can take photo if you like.
Pardini SP New is different from older SP so if you try an old version you may be disappointed. (Being a LP10 fan, that is)
I would recommend a SP New for two years and then change to a SSP if it feels right. The Pardini will be easy to sell and how Walther SSP will be received we do not know anything about as yet. There is always a market for the SP New but SSP can be stone ded if you are not in Europe
Kent
If I may jump in here..
A RINK grip makes the SSP better. Can take photo if you like.
Pardini SP New is different from older SP so if you try an old version you may be disappointed. (Being a LP10 fan, that is)
I would recommend a SP New for two years and then change to a SSP if it feels right. The Pardini will be easy to sell and how Walther SSP will be received we do not know anything about as yet. There is always a market for the SP New but SSP can be stone ded if you are not in Europe
Kent
-
Nicole Hamilton
- Posts: 477
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:17 pm
- Location: Redmond, Washington, USA
- Contact:
Our issues with the SP20 have been many cracked frames and two slides, however, all issues have been with the .32 model.
Would urge that you try as many pistols as you can before making up your own mind. I have SP20’s in both .22 and .32 and also the new Pardini electronic .22 and manual .32. I took this decision factored upon the feel and balance of the pistols, the manufacturer support in our country of operation and the ability to have a custom grip that works for right hand/left eye (not all 25m pistols are if you still want a palm shelf and for it to fit in the control box!).
In terms of priority, I would suggest investing in a custom grip by a skilled grip maker as well as quality optics if you need them as both would have a greater impact upon performance than a few extra Euro on one model –v- another.
The SSP and MatchGuns are two interesting pistols. I examined both but the Pardini was the one for me. A friend purchased the MatchGun and that was a good decision for him. I would certainly add the FWB AWE93 to the list as well as Pardini. The Walther is very new and may need retro-fit changes as some others have required in the early serial numbers! The Pardini electronics unit required changing early on.
BTW my .22 Hammerli is on long term loan to one of our junior shooters so not available. She likes it a lot and was not at all impressed with the Morini or Pardini feel or balance but admitted she liked the electronic trigger on the Pardini. The good thing was she made this decision after trying out the main contenders and recently seeing some of the other alternatives on display.
Maybe we shall see you at Intershoot in February ’07?
Would urge that you try as many pistols as you can before making up your own mind. I have SP20’s in both .22 and .32 and also the new Pardini electronic .22 and manual .32. I took this decision factored upon the feel and balance of the pistols, the manufacturer support in our country of operation and the ability to have a custom grip that works for right hand/left eye (not all 25m pistols are if you still want a palm shelf and for it to fit in the control box!).
In terms of priority, I would suggest investing in a custom grip by a skilled grip maker as well as quality optics if you need them as both would have a greater impact upon performance than a few extra Euro on one model –v- another.
The SSP and MatchGuns are two interesting pistols. I examined both but the Pardini was the one for me. A friend purchased the MatchGun and that was a good decision for him. I would certainly add the FWB AWE93 to the list as well as Pardini. The Walther is very new and may need retro-fit changes as some others have required in the early serial numbers! The Pardini electronics unit required changing early on.
BTW my .22 Hammerli is on long term loan to one of our junior shooters so not available. She likes it a lot and was not at all impressed with the Morini or Pardini feel or balance but admitted she liked the electronic trigger on the Pardini. The good thing was she made this decision after trying out the main contenders and recently seeing some of the other alternatives on display.
Maybe we shall see you at Intershoot in February ’07?
-
Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
Julian... Other posters here have commented on the need to open up your search criteria. There's a good reason for those comments. Having held and SSP in my hand (and at the same time being an owner of a pair of Matchguns MG-2's and a Pardini SP1 Electronic) I can honestly say that I saw NOTHING in the SSP which would make me want to buy it. The trigger, for lack of a better term, was terrible. By comparison I've had many folks pick up my MG-2's and tell me there's no way their triggers would lift the required 1kg trigger weight - but they do. The SSP lifted the 1kg trigger weight without a lot of excess margin for safety, but felt more like a long, gravelly 4-pound trigger.
The grips did nothing for me, so I wouldn't even consider the gun without a set of aftermarket grips. Since the SSP is already at the top of the price range the aftermarket grips would leave you with a very large hole in your pocketbook indeed.
If you want a pistol that exhibits exceedingly high quality, the kind of quality for which Walther and Hammerli were once known (but, alas, are no more) then I'd recommend you look hard at the AW-93 with a Rink grip. But beware, it isn't the gun for you if you intend to shoot rapid fire as it cycles slowly. (Been there, done that...)
If you want a gun that shoots well, is inexpensive and reliable, look at the Pardini. If you don't like an extremely muzzle-heavy pistol then the Pardini is NOT the gun for you.
If you want a gun that shoots like it's an extension of your own arm and are prepared to do some tinkering, look at the MG-2.
Sooooo, the short answer is that, at the moment, there's no one pistol that stands out head-and-shoulders above the others as being superior in every way. All current pistols are compromises. From my limited experience with the SSP it represents a poor compromise in terms of both functionality and price point.
Good luck in your choice!
The grips did nothing for me, so I wouldn't even consider the gun without a set of aftermarket grips. Since the SSP is already at the top of the price range the aftermarket grips would leave you with a very large hole in your pocketbook indeed.
If you want a pistol that exhibits exceedingly high quality, the kind of quality for which Walther and Hammerli were once known (but, alas, are no more) then I'd recommend you look hard at the AW-93 with a Rink grip. But beware, it isn't the gun for you if you intend to shoot rapid fire as it cycles slowly. (Been there, done that...)
If you want a gun that shoots well, is inexpensive and reliable, look at the Pardini. If you don't like an extremely muzzle-heavy pistol then the Pardini is NOT the gun for you.
If you want a gun that shoots like it's an extension of your own arm and are prepared to do some tinkering, look at the MG-2.
Sooooo, the short answer is that, at the moment, there's no one pistol that stands out head-and-shoulders above the others as being superior in every way. All current pistols are compromises. From my limited experience with the SSP it represents a poor compromise in terms of both functionality and price point.
Good luck in your choice!
Julian in all honesty asking these questions on here are a waste of time. If you listened to all the opinions on this bored you shouldn't buy anything because someone hates everything. Like they say opinions are like a------ everyone has one (myself included). The only thing that matters is what you thing of the pistol you buy. I've shot GSP's, AW 93, Paradini's, SSP's, Rugers , MG2's and others. If you can go to some matches and ask to try some peoples pistols that would be best, if you can't do that well just pick out the one you like best and get it.
I tried the SSP and the 1 live fired had a nice trigger and the couple I dryfired in the factory had beautiful triggers so. I've had GSP's for years very reliable, others I shoot with have brand new GSP's which are reliable. The AW 93 is a nice pistol I found it light out of the box (which can easily be changed to suit the shooter so not a bad thing) and a little more upright than I like. I loved the MG2 that I shot unfortunately I'm leary on the support of the pistol (I buy a pistol to shoot not screw around with). The Paradini has a following I'm not overly crazy about it and changing recoil springs and firing pins every 2000-5000 rounds (as has been reported by some and experience by some I close to) is not my idea of reliable (yet these people still give it top marks for relability).
So take most what you hear from the experts here with a grain of salt and choose what you like best "not what someone here things is the best".
I tried the SSP and the 1 live fired had a nice trigger and the couple I dryfired in the factory had beautiful triggers so. I've had GSP's for years very reliable, others I shoot with have brand new GSP's which are reliable. The AW 93 is a nice pistol I found it light out of the box (which can easily be changed to suit the shooter so not a bad thing) and a little more upright than I like. I loved the MG2 that I shot unfortunately I'm leary on the support of the pistol (I buy a pistol to shoot not screw around with). The Paradini has a following I'm not overly crazy about it and changing recoil springs and firing pins every 2000-5000 rounds (as has been reported by some and experience by some I close to) is not my idea of reliable (yet these people still give it top marks for relability).
So take most what you hear from the experts here with a grain of salt and choose what you like best "not what someone here things is the best".
-
Guest
Had my first Pardini (SP) 6 years and fired about 30,000 rounds. One broken firing pin (after about 5 years and never changed the recoil spring.The Paradini has a following I'm not overly crazy about it and changing recoil springs and firing pins every 2000-5000 rounds
My second Pardini (SPNew) had for a year and faultless performance.
Having said that, what ever pistol you choose, always carry a spare firing pin and the required tools to change it.
-
JulianY
- Posts: 350
- Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:26 am
- Location: A british shooting refugee in Amsterdam
- Contact:
Well I have read all that has been posted.
I dont like the look of the sp20, to my eyes it look like a grease gun!
I do like the look of the ssp but it is crearly a new commer and has little to top level credits to it's nam which in my view makes it a gamble.
The SP has plenty of olymiic QDOS, also i like the idear of the dry fire capabilities of the SP1.
So i am going to get hold of both of the importers and arange to see/try one of each and we will see what happens
many thanks for all your thoughts, contry to some opinions, listening to other people input is valuable, if it help you think logicaly
best regards
Julian
I dont like the look of the sp20, to my eyes it look like a grease gun!
I do like the look of the ssp but it is crearly a new commer and has little to top level credits to it's nam which in my view makes it a gamble.
The SP has plenty of olymiic QDOS, also i like the idear of the dry fire capabilities of the SP1.
So i am going to get hold of both of the importers and arange to see/try one of each and we will see what happens
many thanks for all your thoughts, contry to some opinions, listening to other people input is valuable, if it help you think logicaly
best regards
Julian