Recently, since trying to ACTUALY look at the sights and not at the target while shooting, I have a better group than before, but now I am less capable of getting 10´s, 1 or 2 per 30 shots.
I haven´t been able to keep planing my training because of work(before I had a plan diverted in 3 days, grip, stance, and release).
I am happy I now can say I can have a group (out of 10, 7 are in the bullseye meaning the black circle), and most of the shots outside the bulls eye are twiches or stuborn shots, but the 10´s elude me.
Also I have tried to adjust my stance for a natural point of aim, but it allways ends in the front sight being allways down (as I´ve read for that I have to adjust the grip, but since its not my pistol I haven´t asked if I can).
I have been seeing that while concentrating on the sights my pistol woble is less "steady". This makes my groups be inside the bullseye but all over the place.
Any tips or exersices (sp?) for tightening the groups even more?
I have been training with the back part of the target, although I always alternate with the front.
What to do?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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bubba_zenetti
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:43 am
- Location: Washington USA
here is what i do, i keep my focus on the front sight all the time. i pretend that i am extending the front sight all the way to the target and pushing it into the black part of the target. at the same time the front sight passes over the targets point of aim (i hold dead on the bull and it works best for me) i pretend that i am pulling the target towards my front sight with my trigger finger (moving only my finger) at the same moment that is happening, i focus on the pellet leaving the barrel (mental image) of it hitting the 10 ring. i keep that focus for at least a good 3 seconds after the shot has hit the target (a good follow through)
i find that focusing energy into the shot helps me. i keep working on focusing harder. all this happens within 6 seconds of bringing the pistol up. if i cant pull it off in 6 seconds i get to wiggly and i stop, take a deep breath and try again. no sense trying to pull a shot off after 6 seconds for me because the wiggles only get worst.
like you i am a newbie to the whole air pistol thing (or any precision shooting). i have no problems landing large bullets in the x ring of a b27 but this game is a real challenge. all i can say is keep practicing. the more you shoot and disipline yourself the better you get. that is the enitre key i think. self disipline. its pretty heard to master it.
here is another one i used to do for fun, take popcorn and put it on a string or tape it to some black paper at 10m. since your target is smaller you can concentrate on tightening up your arc of movment. if you can hit popcorn at 10m you can hit the 10 ring. i find it to be a psychological help. if the target is smaller you concentrate on a smaller area. since a b40 is pretty large, i tend to think even if i slip a little i will still land it in the 8 ring. with a peice of popcorn, a miss does not result in 8 points. you get nada. a hit brings oodles of satisfaction.
i find that focusing energy into the shot helps me. i keep working on focusing harder. all this happens within 6 seconds of bringing the pistol up. if i cant pull it off in 6 seconds i get to wiggly and i stop, take a deep breath and try again. no sense trying to pull a shot off after 6 seconds for me because the wiggles only get worst.
like you i am a newbie to the whole air pistol thing (or any precision shooting). i have no problems landing large bullets in the x ring of a b27 but this game is a real challenge. all i can say is keep practicing. the more you shoot and disipline yourself the better you get. that is the enitre key i think. self disipline. its pretty heard to master it.
here is another one i used to do for fun, take popcorn and put it on a string or tape it to some black paper at 10m. since your target is smaller you can concentrate on tightening up your arc of movment. if you can hit popcorn at 10m you can hit the 10 ring. i find it to be a psychological help. if the target is smaller you concentrate on a smaller area. since a b40 is pretty large, i tend to think even if i slip a little i will still land it in the 8 ring. with a peice of popcorn, a miss does not result in 8 points. you get nada. a hit brings oodles of satisfaction.
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Steve Swartz
Cuervo:
Not to sound too "mystical" about it all, but please accept that you are trying to "program" an organic system through repetition and observation.
You will have to execute the process perfectly (align sights, accept settle, movement free trigger) thousands of times exactly the same way.
Your subconscious mind will be learning how to coordinate trigger pressure with sight picture in order to release the shot at the right instant ahead of time.
So two observations:
1) you are unlearning preconceived behaviors and then learning a new way to do something; this takes time before improvement actually becomes visible.
2) The aiming circle is a very tempting distraction. Using the bullseye instead of a blank surface will slow your progress.
Steve Swartz
Not to sound too "mystical" about it all, but please accept that you are trying to "program" an organic system through repetition and observation.
You will have to execute the process perfectly (align sights, accept settle, movement free trigger) thousands of times exactly the same way.
Your subconscious mind will be learning how to coordinate trigger pressure with sight picture in order to release the shot at the right instant ahead of time.
So two observations:
1) you are unlearning preconceived behaviors and then learning a new way to do something; this takes time before improvement actually becomes visible.
2) The aiming circle is a very tempting distraction. Using the bullseye instead of a blank surface will slow your progress.
Steve Swartz
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Steve Swartz
3) Perceiving "more wobble" (less steady) while concentrating on sight alignment is a common optical illusion. Think about it- errors in alignment have a huge downrange effect on point of impact (angular displacement); errors in aim (parallel displacement) are much smaller relatively speaking.
Steve Swartz
Steve Swartz
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Bill Poole
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:50 pm
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
- Contact:
errors in aim are mostly also a type of "angular displacement" but the "angle" pivots at the shoulder rather than the wrist, adding about 3' to the distance between the front sight and the pivot point, making aiming error three (air pistol) to eight (.45) times less detrimental than alignment error.
True parallel displacement requires the body, arm, hand and head to move together to the side the same distance as the front sight.
I got into a heated discussion about this a while back and it prompted me to look at the issue from an engineering viewpoint. Wobble does matter, just not near as much, if it didn't you couldn't call a shot.
nonetheless, ignore the wobble and focus on the front sight, keep it level and smooooooooth, check your grip, postion & NPA, follow thru and all that good stuff coach Pat used to teach us...
Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/
True parallel displacement requires the body, arm, hand and head to move together to the side the same distance as the front sight.
I got into a heated discussion about this a while back and it prompted me to look at the issue from an engineering viewpoint. Wobble does matter, just not near as much, if it didn't you couldn't call a shot.
nonetheless, ignore the wobble and focus on the front sight, keep it level and smooooooooth, check your grip, postion & NPA, follow thru and all that good stuff coach Pat used to teach us...
Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/
well to have an update I just came from a match tonight.
After knowing what my group was on practice I chose 10 shots for practice before actually starting the match. I divided it into 2, one group (the first one) I tried to shoot as I have read (concentrating on the sights and not the bullseye), result all the shots where all over the place in the bullseye no real group inside the bullseye. Second group I tried to remember how I started shooting, puting attention at the sights and then at the bullseye. (yes this is not the way it has to be but I was desperate for 10's), Result 1 10 and a tighter group on 9's and 8's.
So I made the desition that for this match I would change my regular way of shooting and "devolve" back to when I started.
To summarize the match my final score rose by 13 points, and coincidently 13 shots in total (including an embarassing 4) where outside the bullseye.
the complete score was 488 my last score was 476.
I am very confused, as I told you guys in my original post, 10's were very rare in training, while in the match I had an increased number of 10's compared to the training. What am I doing wrong in my training?
Match like the one I went today are the last wednesday of every month. I would like to be ready for the next match and do it right this time.
Thoughts and feedback needed
Cheers
Javier
After knowing what my group was on practice I chose 10 shots for practice before actually starting the match. I divided it into 2, one group (the first one) I tried to shoot as I have read (concentrating on the sights and not the bullseye), result all the shots where all over the place in the bullseye no real group inside the bullseye. Second group I tried to remember how I started shooting, puting attention at the sights and then at the bullseye. (yes this is not the way it has to be but I was desperate for 10's), Result 1 10 and a tighter group on 9's and 8's.
So I made the desition that for this match I would change my regular way of shooting and "devolve" back to when I started.
To summarize the match my final score rose by 13 points, and coincidently 13 shots in total (including an embarassing 4) where outside the bullseye.
the complete score was 488 my last score was 476.
I am very confused, as I told you guys in my original post, 10's were very rare in training, while in the match I had an increased number of 10's compared to the training. What am I doing wrong in my training?
Match like the one I went today are the last wednesday of every month. I would like to be ready for the next match and do it right this time.
Thoughts and feedback needed
Cheers
Javier
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Albert B
wobble and groups
Cuervo79,
Beeing a a rifle shooter and a basic rifle & pistol trainer I get the feeling that when you focus on the sights you loose the feeling of balance and start wobbling side tot side and/ore back and forth. When you look at the bullseye you have a reference to the surroundings, controling your (un)balance. Looking at the sights you have less reference to your surroundings.
Offcourse, this is just a guess on my part. Perhaps you can start by checking your balance and only when that is correct, move on to the next step: lining up correctly - getting your NPOI correct.
Wishing you lots of 10's,
Albert
(The Netherlands)
Beeing a a rifle shooter and a basic rifle & pistol trainer I get the feeling that when you focus on the sights you loose the feeling of balance and start wobbling side tot side and/ore back and forth. When you look at the bullseye you have a reference to the surroundings, controling your (un)balance. Looking at the sights you have less reference to your surroundings.
Offcourse, this is just a guess on my part. Perhaps you can start by checking your balance and only when that is correct, move on to the next step: lining up correctly - getting your NPOI correct.
Wishing you lots of 10's,
Albert
(The Netherlands)
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Steve Swartz
1) Establish your appropriate grip and stance for natural point of aim shooting
2) Visualize/think about perfect sight alignment (front sight in sharp focus, rear sight a little blurry but in the "background" mentally) WITH NO TARGET
3) Breath in and lift the gun above the target
4) Breath out as you settle the gun toward the target area; simultaneously pick up crisp physical focus on the front sight
5) As the front sight settles in the aiming area, concentrate on the front sight and keeping the front sight in perfect alignment with the rear sight
6) Keeping physical and mental focus on the front sight, and keeping the two sights perfectly aligned against each other, smoothly increase pressure on the trigger
7) If the shot doesn't break within 5-10 seconds, put the gun down and start over again at 2)
NOTE 1: At no time should your physical or mental focus wander to the target itself
NOTE 2: At no time should your physical or mental focus wander to trying to aim the gun at a specific point in relation tot he target
NOTE 3: You should in no way try to time the release of the shot so that it breaks when the sights are pointed at a specific point in relationship to the target
TRUST THE PROCESS
Steve Swartz
OBTW, read as much as you can in this forum and other sources to reinforce what I just described. The proper way to shoot is no "secret" HOWEVER it is incredibly difficult to allow it to happen.
2) Visualize/think about perfect sight alignment (front sight in sharp focus, rear sight a little blurry but in the "background" mentally) WITH NO TARGET
3) Breath in and lift the gun above the target
4) Breath out as you settle the gun toward the target area; simultaneously pick up crisp physical focus on the front sight
5) As the front sight settles in the aiming area, concentrate on the front sight and keeping the front sight in perfect alignment with the rear sight
6) Keeping physical and mental focus on the front sight, and keeping the two sights perfectly aligned against each other, smoothly increase pressure on the trigger
7) If the shot doesn't break within 5-10 seconds, put the gun down and start over again at 2)
NOTE 1: At no time should your physical or mental focus wander to the target itself
NOTE 2: At no time should your physical or mental focus wander to trying to aim the gun at a specific point in relation tot he target
NOTE 3: You should in no way try to time the release of the shot so that it breaks when the sights are pointed at a specific point in relationship to the target
TRUST THE PROCESS
Steve Swartz
OBTW, read as much as you can in this forum and other sources to reinforce what I just described. The proper way to shoot is no "secret" HOWEVER it is incredibly difficult to allow it to happen.
I feel that Albert B hit the nail with what he said, that is exactly what I felt. While concentrating on just the sights I tend to wobble ALLOT more than when I saw the bullseye. After all that I even got my score up by 13 points. So it as I said got me lost.
I think one of the major problems is my Natural point of aim. Since the only equation I have to adjust right now is my stance, since I´ll have to ask about adjusting the grip on the gun.
I have read on different articles and the AMU about how to get your natural point of aim. Let me explain it so you can correct me if I´m wrong.
To get the stance I position my feet in a trapezoid making the base of the trapezoid at the front of my feet and the base is in line with the target. Now I am not completely on my side while I shoot (I took most of the stance info from Don Nygord´s tips) so I tend to turn my hips a little so I don´t have to turn my head too much.
After all this I close my eyes and then lift the gun to the aproximate height where I think the target is, if the gun is to the left of the target I adjust the left foot to the oposite position, and viseversa.
Now as I understand it, this only helps you in the horizontal, to get your sights also in NPOA you then adjust your girp so that each time you close your eyes and lift the pistol it will not only be on the target but also the sights will be "alighned".
That is what I understood about NPOA.
I think one of the major problems is my Natural point of aim. Since the only equation I have to adjust right now is my stance, since I´ll have to ask about adjusting the grip on the gun.
I have read on different articles and the AMU about how to get your natural point of aim. Let me explain it so you can correct me if I´m wrong.
To get the stance I position my feet in a trapezoid making the base of the trapezoid at the front of my feet and the base is in line with the target. Now I am not completely on my side while I shoot (I took most of the stance info from Don Nygord´s tips) so I tend to turn my hips a little so I don´t have to turn my head too much.
After all this I close my eyes and then lift the gun to the aproximate height where I think the target is, if the gun is to the left of the target I adjust the left foot to the oposite position, and viseversa.
Now as I understand it, this only helps you in the horizontal, to get your sights also in NPOA you then adjust your girp so that each time you close your eyes and lift the pistol it will not only be on the target but also the sights will be "alighned".
That is what I understood about NPOA.
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Desparate for 10's
Javier,
I suspect 'desparate for 10's' has upset the mental calmness required for good shooting. Don't expect too much too soon. Let things happen.
Many times (too many times) in practice as well as in matches I have shot the dreaded 'doughnut' - 10 shots inside the 8 ring and not one 10; or 5 shots inside the 9 ring and not one 10! I have to force myself to stay with my process. If changes are to be made I make one at a time and only in practice, not at a match.
Steve's process is a good place to start. I would add that we all have our own process, developed over time. They are similar, but not identical. So my advice is stick with Steve's for a few months. Think about it. Read. Adapt it to your own needs slowly and carefully.
This is a wonderful sport!
Fred
I suspect 'desparate for 10's' has upset the mental calmness required for good shooting. Don't expect too much too soon. Let things happen.
Many times (too many times) in practice as well as in matches I have shot the dreaded 'doughnut' - 10 shots inside the 8 ring and not one 10; or 5 shots inside the 9 ring and not one 10! I have to force myself to stay with my process. If changes are to be made I make one at a time and only in practice, not at a match.
Steve's process is a good place to start. I would add that we all have our own process, developed over time. They are similar, but not identical. So my advice is stick with Steve's for a few months. Think about it. Read. Adapt it to your own needs slowly and carefully.
This is a wonderful sport!
Fred
Shoot groups on a blank target back. This will help you bring your attention back to the gun. We say 'concentrate on the sight' a lot, but what does that mean? Training ought to be towards holding the sight as steady as you can, in alignment, not letting the trigger mess it up, and to do that throughout the shot.
to Fred Manis: I do not train this way, when I was training I did not expect or got nervous because I didn´t get any 10´s so it wasn´t because I was nervous in training that I didn´t get them. I conciously chose to regres IN the match so I could get 10´s.
JackH that is what I have been doing, but my groups are not getting in the center of the target most of the time they are a little bit up and to the left of the bullseye. I think I will be doing MORE of this type because it DID help allot in my groupings.. I know this all takes time specially training time.
Last of all thanks for your replies, and happy shooting
JackH that is what I have been doing, but my groups are not getting in the center of the target most of the time they are a little bit up and to the left of the bullseye. I think I will be doing MORE of this type because it DID help allot in my groupings.. I know this all takes time specially training time.
Last of all thanks for your replies, and happy shooting
If your groups are high and left then move the sights down and right. Then they will be in the middle.Cuervo79 wrote: JackH that is what I have been doing, but my groups are not getting in the center of the target most of the time they are a little bit up and to the left of the bullseye. I think I will be doing MORE of this type because it DID help allot in my groupings.. I know this all takes time specially training time.
Last of all thanks for your replies, and happy shooting
Rob.
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Pradeep5
Don't worry about trying to hit the 10 ring. Just make each shot as good as possible. Once you get rid of the "stray shots", the 14 shots in the white for example, you will find your score improves nicely. And the more you train, the smaller your group will become. Definitely do some practice shooting at the blank back of the card, that will stop you trying to "hit" the 10.
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Albert B
wobble
Javier, some poeple seem to have to large blenders. As the main problem consists of a bad balancete first thing to correct. Once this is done you will find that aiming and triggercontrol will become better all by itself.
This is what I would do:
Take your time to do this and be sure you are not interrupted by anyone and take very good notice of what you feel (muscle tension, changes in balance and changes in balance).
Without the pistol and having your eyes closed, assume the shooting position with your shooting arm hanging down. Still with your eyes closed start correcting the position of legs and feet untill you are in perfect balance. Start with the inside of your feet at shoulder distance as minimum. make the distance larger or smaller/turn your feet inwards or outwards/place the rightfoot forward or backwards - all just to feel what is happening with your balance. Now raise the right hand (if you are a righthanded shooter) and correct for the change in balance caused by the arm. Write the position of feet and legs down in detail.
When all is in order, open eyes and pick up pistol. Close your eyes again and assume the shooting position again. You will have to change position of feet and upper body slightly to compensate for the weight of the pistol.
When you have esteblished perfect balance, open eyes and write down every detail about position of feet, legs, angels tot the target, distances, position of right arm etc.
You can repete the above discribed method severeal times. Each time there will be small differences, but after several attemps there will be an 'average' position.
Now you have enough info to repete the 'perfect' shooting position every time. Over the years, it is possible that your shooting position changes, because of changes in the body. Also another weight of pistol or different height of target will need a slight change in distance of the feet.
When you are able to repeat the perfect shooting position, it is time to take the next step: correcting your position to get a good Nataral Point of Aim.
Make sure you write down every detail in your shooters logbook - "don't leave home without it"...
If you want any more info, just let me/us know.
Albert
(The Netherlands)
This is what I would do:
Take your time to do this and be sure you are not interrupted by anyone and take very good notice of what you feel (muscle tension, changes in balance and changes in balance).
Without the pistol and having your eyes closed, assume the shooting position with your shooting arm hanging down. Still with your eyes closed start correcting the position of legs and feet untill you are in perfect balance. Start with the inside of your feet at shoulder distance as minimum. make the distance larger or smaller/turn your feet inwards or outwards/place the rightfoot forward or backwards - all just to feel what is happening with your balance. Now raise the right hand (if you are a righthanded shooter) and correct for the change in balance caused by the arm. Write the position of feet and legs down in detail.
When all is in order, open eyes and pick up pistol. Close your eyes again and assume the shooting position again. You will have to change position of feet and upper body slightly to compensate for the weight of the pistol.
When you have esteblished perfect balance, open eyes and write down every detail about position of feet, legs, angels tot the target, distances, position of right arm etc.
You can repete the above discribed method severeal times. Each time there will be small differences, but after several attemps there will be an 'average' position.
Now you have enough info to repete the 'perfect' shooting position every time. Over the years, it is possible that your shooting position changes, because of changes in the body. Also another weight of pistol or different height of target will need a slight change in distance of the feet.
When you are able to repeat the perfect shooting position, it is time to take the next step: correcting your position to get a good Nataral Point of Aim.
Make sure you write down every detail in your shooters logbook - "don't leave home without it"...
If you want any more info, just let me/us know.
Albert
(The Netherlands)