TargetTalk

What might be suitable pistol for shooting all Standard Pistol, Sport Pistol and Rapid Fire? I know best solution is to get one for rapid fire and one for SP but what could be reasonable for both?

Hmm.....

From what I'm hearing, and my own limited experience, I would advise not buying a gun with a recoil reduction system. This leaves you with the following:

FAS 608
Hammerli 208
Hammerli 280
Izh-35
Match Guns MG-2
Morini CM-22
Unique DES-69
Walther GSP (except the Expert model)

The other questions center around balance, and triggers. A Walther OSP, for example, had a shorter barrel to move the center of gravity back in the hand - which would argue in favor of guns like the Hammerli and Unique. And as for triggers, there are a lot of shooters who prefer some sort of single-stage trigger for RF.

Last week, I shot RF with my Hammerli 280. Appalling score. Next time, we'll try the 208 and see how THAT shoots. That being said, I have the feeling that the Izh-35 may well be the best pick.

Until Walther comes out with the SSP. I suspect that Walther will have thought that gun out extremely well, and based it on a lot of experience.

Maybe Benelli too. Although I've seen one in that use -SP & Rapid Fire. And the shooter was happy about it!

Ask for Benelli from Teuvo Louhisola Oy

Mike, do you mean FAS 607 which is in their website or is there new model from FAS? I heard rumors about new FAS but it was just a rumor.

Iceman, here is locally many Benelli shooters, but Targettalkers generally does not rate it very high. I dont know with reason or not.

Mike M. wrote:Hmm.....

From what I'm hearing, and my own limited experience, I would advise not buying a gun with a recoil reduction system.

Why might that be Mike ? One of my fellow shooters shoots the new pardini in both .22 and .32 and he has the recoil reduction system on them. I would also imagine it's a must if you want to shoot good RF scores, you just ain't gonna do that with a run of the mill .22.

Rob.

Especially Mike in the four second strings. I have seen some local RF shooters (540+ w. .22 shorts) shoot 460+ with the .22lr---SP20's, 280's, 208S, Pardini SP, IZH35, Walther KSP200, Walther GSP, S&W 41 and Hi-Standard Supermatic Trophy with fluted barrel, weights & comp. The best I saw was from the Hi-Standard, 41, IZH & KSP in that order. I think the Pardini's, SP20's, 280's were too much gun for the 4 sec. The 4 sec. strings often produced at least one to two misses per string, with a .22lr, remember a 1Kg trigger weight not 20 grams or so. The older .22 short guns still were the masters of all three phases---we still shoot the older guns in the NYS Empire Games---no further comments in print.

From what I've heard, the reciol reduction systems were interfering with shot transitions. You couldn't get one shot off, recover, and get the next shot off.

That being said, I can well believe that the shorter guns are becoming preferred.

IIRC, the Pardini "recoil reduction system" was just some springloaded weights that can be removed from the muzzle-end of the barrel shroud. Seems the simple solution, for those that think it's a detriment, is to just go ahead and remove the weights or remove the springs and get spacers to prevent the weights from moving...something as simple as a couple short pieces of dowel rod would do.

Exactly right Sparky - you can completely disable the recoil reduction system if you desire.

Just wondering why one should tamper with the recoil reduction. Is more or less essential for RF and certainly not disadvantageous for SP. The most difficult thing, in my opinion, is the trigger setup. I would prefer a rolling trigger for RF and a crisp two-stage trigger for SP. This is difficult to change back and forth in pistols such as my Pardini.

Cheers,

Bob

I would suggest any of the current .22s without a recoil system.
eg Izh 35, FAS 607 etc.
In Russia a new RF record has been set with the Izh 35 so it can't be too hard :)

FAS are apparently working on a new 0.22, "In the end, we'd like to inform you that we're finishing the production of the new FAS cal 22 and, as soon as possible, we'll communicate you its availability."
That was six months ago so who knows.

Personally I find the long barreled Pardinis and Benellis a struggle.

Otherwise try a Buckmark and ~50,000 rnds of practise ammo.

JER - I can't speak too much for a lot of different brands, but I'll tell you what I know about the ones I've owned.

For Standard Pistol, just about anything will do. BUT, if you get a high-end gun you'll likely see your standard pistol scores improve significantly. (example, I used to shoot a S&W41, and typically ran in the low 500's with it, switched to the MG-2 and in the first match shot 552 - that's a big jump, solely attributable to the MG-2s ability to return to target faster than the S&W41, and it's superior trigger)

For RapidFire, it's a whole different ballgame. So far I've tried the following:
S&W41 - don't even try this as it's total frustration
Pardini SPE - not bad, but wicked muzzle flip
Walther GSP (old) - about the same as the Pardini SPE, works well mechanically, but a challenge to shoot fast
IZH-35 - quite good, best value for the dollar, crude workmanship and inconsistant quality (owned one myself, bought 4 of them as club guns)
Pardini SP1 electronic - tested this both with the counterweight recoil reduction system removed and installed. The gun's virtually useless in RF without the recoil reduction system. Way too much muzzle flip, makes the 4s series a real challenge
Matchguns MG-2 - in my opinion, this gun is still king of the hill for rapidfire. I haven't found anything yet that is as fast in returning to target for the next shot.

My experiences are extremely limited since I have to travel to Switzerland to shoot - which I did for the very first time last week. However the other shooters I shot with are more experienced travelling shooters.

I shot the walther GSP in CF, SP and RF. It is certainly not easy to shoot RF but it is obviously acheiveable if I could get all the 4s strings on the targets.

Most of the other guys shoot 'ordinary' .22 guns with the exception of one who shoots the new pardini. He found that gun very good for the RF and equally his scores in SP were very respectable.

My own gun selection is almost certainly going to be the pardini although I would like to see the walther ssp before finally deciding.

Rob.

After a standard pistol match, Rob and I shot an impromptu rapid match against two of our team mates before leaving for the airport and back to the UK with only Steyr LP5’s for training!!

Not sure why the new Pardini electronic has been annexed out of the list, I have to say as a standard pistol, it is awesome pistol and a pleasure to shoot (see below!). Coupled with the S&K/Lapua 25m .22lr ammunition, for ORF the 8’s and 6’s were easy to shoot and the 4’s were challenging but well achievable. Looking at results from the world cup matches, many shooters are using this new technology with superb results. Most know the situation for UK shooters, even if we wanted to shoot rapid seriously, the training with air pistols makes this unrealistic and we focus on CF/STD and Sport events. Given a free choice and limitless budget of the pistols listed, for 22lr, I would pick the Pardini every time.

Shooting right hand/left eye, I had a custom grip made. The default Pardini grip is notably dropped wrist and I had a real problem performing with this. After the second round of packing material in the grips to bring the pistol more upright, this also effectively brought the trigger forwards for a 90 degrees let-off trigger position and a return to form. I would be very interested to PM/email with others with the Pardini and shooting right hand/left eye or vice versa. Shooting centre fire with the default grip angle was very frustrating so I wonder what others have done. Packing the grip incidentally still leaves a good contact with the electrics. In .32, I can see why this is a popular choice for CISM shooters.

In response to PaulT's comments on the Pardini, I guess I could have been a little more concise in the wording of my post above.

I have the SP1 Electronic, the new version, with steel counterweights. I like the pistol very much. It is virtually useless on the 4s string without the weights installed, but with the weights is much more manageable. I would imagine the RF version with tungsten weights would be even better, but I personally don't have the ability to support that much weight that far out on the pistol.

In essence the Pardini design is a compromise. It uses a short barrel, and thus must use something to compensate for the resulting muzzle flip. By comparison, the MG-2 has a 6" barrel and inherently has far less muzzle flip. As a result I shoot my MG-2 without even having the standard weights attached at the muzzle. It doesn't need them.

On the matter of triggers, the Pardini electronic gives you the ability to dryfire multiple shots. This is a good thing. The MG-2 on the other hand doesn't give you 5 "clicks" as you dry fire, but does give you a consistant trigger pull when dry firing - it feels the same whether you're dry-firing or live firing. In this regard the Pardini has a slight advantage.

Both pistols offer low boreline, good sights, and ergonomic grips. The Matchguns pistol gives you the added benefit of being able to adjust grip angle. I've found this to be of great benefit. My new MG-2 will be coming with Rink grips so I'm anxious to see how they work.

One reason why many may discount the Pardini electronic is because they have had a chequered history. The same goes for the MG-2. So far my experience with both of these pistols is that paying slight attention to ammo selection will provide you with reliable functioning. The only real gotcha is that with anything but very low velocity ammo the Pardini does indeed make lots of muzzle flip, even with the counterweights.

So, I don't think anybody should discount the Pardini. And by the same token I don't think the MG-2 should be discounted either. At the moment I travel with one of each in my box, and pick the MG-2 as my primary pistol and the Pardini SP1 as my backup gun. When my new MG-2 arrives I'll have to determine whether it will become primary, backup or excess to my needs. Gee, aren't I lucky!?!?!?! ;-)

I agree, but everyone's got their own wierd preferences.

rapid2 wrote:Just wondering why one should tamper with the recoil reduction. Is more or less essential for RF and certainly not disadvantageous for SP. The most difficult thing, in my opinion, is the trigger setup. I would prefer a rolling trigger for RF and a crisp two-stage trigger for SP. This is difficult to change back and forth in pistols such as my Pardini.

Cheers,

Bob

Hi,
This is perhaps like putting wood on the fire but here we go.
I have had the opportunity to test the new Walther SSP for 500 shots.
This will be the gun for all disciplines in .22 Light weight and fast recovery.
AW93 is OK for standard pistol but it is heavy and recoil is long. The muzzle does a pirouette every time but you can get used to it.

As for a reference, this is a list of guns I have or have had

Unique .22 and .32
Hämmerli 208S, 280, P240 in .22, .32 and .38, 152, FP10, FP60.
Pardini SP and HP
Morini 102E, CM22 (all steel model) 162E Short and Long, 84E.
Styer LP10 and LP5
S&W K14 and 586
SIG P210 9mm and 7,65
FWB AW93, 80
Walther OSP

I have ordered a Walther SSP and I have had a lot to compare with.
When I whant to change the balance of the gun I can attach weight at the right place. This is easier if the gun is light from start.

Kent

It may well be that the SSP will win out. Walther has had the advantage of watching everybody else work on the issues, then coming in with a design that avoids the obvious mistakes.

I may wind up with an SSP, but the budget may not stretch that far.

In Finland MG and Morini are 300-400 euros cheaper than others. How about in other countries?

Could you confirm that the Walther KSP200 is suitable for RF (5 shots strings in 8, 6 and 4 seconds) ?
Thanks !
Ben.