TargetTalk

to the forum:

I have problems with the maintenance of the pistol after the shot (follow-through).
I have attempted many forms of training like to count up to three after shooting, or to loose the trigger and press again.
could somebody suggest another form of training to maintain the pistol after the shot?

On the other hand, I have analyzed the videos of world championships and I see that many marksmen don't maintain the weapon after shooting, thinking of what delays the pellet in leaving the canyon, in my non scientific opinion, it is not very important to maintain the weapon after the shot.

nano

Nano,

I am no expert: I am sure some of the coaches here will give clearer advice.

I can only tell you what works for me in the relatively short time I have been shooting: disregard if it doesn't float your boat.

Shooting at a blank card and REALLY concentrating on alignment through the shot means I end up trying to hold those sights together by force of will and often find myself with a long follow through.

I guess it "happens" because I try and focus on alignment and squeeze - everything else is relatively relaxed and in the background.

Thats probably not much help. FWIW check out the RealMovie clips on this site - some good examples of follow-throughs that seem to go on for ever.

http://www.targetshooting.ca/reframeriz ... aching.htm

good luck

M.

Nano,
It's mainly a matter of self determination rather than anything else. You need to force yourself to do it. Try counting to 3 after you release the shot and if you don't then score it as a failed exercise. At the end of the session grade yourself. That's where you have to be honest. You can then aim for the next session to improve your follow through, i.e. get it right more of the time. Don't be tempted to look for score as such - that's not important, for this exercise it's proper follow through technique that is your goal. This works for me.

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote:Nano,
It's mainly a matter of self determination rather than anything else. You need to force yourself to do it. Try counting to 3 after you release the shot and if you don't then score it as a failed exercise. At the end of the session grade yourself. That's where you have to be honest. You can then aim for the next session to improve your follow through, i.e. get it right more of the time. Don't be tempted to look for score as such - that's not important, for this exercise it's proper follow through technique that is your goal. This works for me.

Rob.

I really don't subscribe to the counting thing as that takes mind off the task and has it thinking "after the shot hold till I count to three", I really can't see how that would be any benefit over not haveing a follow through.

The best thing as has be said many times is probably dryfiring, concentrating on not disturbing the sights even after the shot breaks.

I think the other problem is that you need to plan your training, stop going to the range to shoot targets and score them. Go to the range and decide before hand what you plan to work on ie. follow-thru, grip pressure, trigger, metal shot plan, stance, ect. Then practice what you planned to do not worrying about score (shoot on targets with the rings blacked out or blank targets or just into the backstop). I get questioned about this at the range all the time, "why are you shooting on blacked out targets, or targets with the centers cut-out or target backs."

Have any of you played any other sport, did you practice by doing the match over and over? No you practice elements of the game and refine the technique. Then every once in awhile plan to shoot a simulated match, and see how you have improved and what you need to work on.

I see it all the time everyone goes to the range and shoots 60 shots on target and scores them then they do it again and again and again and expect to improve. The only time this will probably show any improvement is at the very beginning as you need to condition the muscle memory and increase your endurance, but at a certain level you won't see any improvement.

Insanity= doing the samething over and over and expecting different results. If you shot at a certain level you will continue to shoot at that level until you change something about how you shoot (that's the difficult part), many shooters think that they can buy a better score by getting a new gun or testing pellets.

I use to go to the range and shoot 60-80 shots score the targets, so I know where everyone is coming from. But I have taken the advice of some the very good shooters that post on this board and really assessed my training. It really seems to be paying off.

Richard H wrote: I really don't subscribe to the counting thing as that takes mind off the task and has it thinking "after the shot hold till I count to three", I really can't see how that would be any benefit over not haveing a follow through.

The best thing as has be said many times is probably dryfiring, concentrating on not disturbing the sights even after the shot breaks.

Richard,
Sure the counting thing is a minor distraction, but only to start with. You soon learn to count without actually thinking or just hold for the appropriate amount of time as a subconscious action. All counting does is teach your brain how long 3 seconds is. Having no follow through can be very dramatic and is a hell of a lot worse than counting, and I talk from personal experience.

Dry firing can be useful but without a reference mark it's difficult to tell if the gun moved or not. So you really need a few different dry firing scenarios; totally blank background, a line or cross and an aiming mark.

Rob.

Follow through is not just holding the gun up there after the shot. It is continuing the shot process even though the shot has left the barrel. You continue to align the sights, pull the trigger back and focus on the front sight. People get so focused on holding the gun for however long they prescribe is correct. Holding the gun up is part of follow through, but the focus on the process is what completes follow through.

Mike Douglass

Mike,
I don't think anyone was suggesting follow through is just holding the gun up for n seconds and I don't think many people believe that. It is after all called 'follow through' not 'hold the gun up'.

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote:Nano,
Try counting to 3 after you release the shot and if you don't then score it as a failed exercise.
Rob.

After this quote there was further discussion about holding the gun up for a period of time, but no reference to it being a continuation of the shot process.

I am just not referring to this forum either. Many other shooters I have talked to before just thought follow through was holding the gun up. Once again, I rarely hear shooters go into further discussion of follow through mention more than holding the gun there.

Mike Douglass

RobStubbs wrote:Mike,
I don't think anyone was suggesting follow through is just holding the gun up for n seconds and I don't think many people believe that. It is after all called 'follow through' not 'hold the gun up'.

Rob.

I do think a fair number of newer shooters do think follow through is just holding the gun up. Next time you're at the range question a few shooters as to what they are doing or looking for during the follow through.

[Try counting to 3 after you release the shot ... ]

I would say: Imagine the pellet is still running inside the barrel well after you heard the shot breaking, the bang. So you must keep the pistol on aim for a while, the eye focused on the front sight. To me the real benefit of this follow-t. is that the movement of the barrel, during and after the shot, is more smooth, more balanced, just because you keep the pistol on aim for a while, and you do not relax too soon the arm, and the hand, and the eye.

Richard H wrote:I do think a fair number of newer shooters do think follow through is just holding the gun up.

Like probably a lot of folks here, I volunteer as an NRA instructor, so I'm sure my experience with new shooters in basic pistol and rifle classes is shared by many. Getting new shooters to do follow-through is even harder than getting them to keep their fingers off the triggers until they're actually on target.

A few new shooters will pay attention to what you tell them and will just totally freeze when the gun goes off. Not a muscle anywhere moves. And even their beginning targets are great. But most just can't do it. The first thing they do is drop the gun the instant the shot fires. Boom, down comes the gun. No discernible follow-through whatsoever. So the immediate hurdle is to get them to hold the gun up.

But even once you get them to do that, it is still like pulling teeth to get them to keep their hands frozen in the same position. Instead they bounce their fingers off the triggers and release their grips. It's like, okay, I'm done, count one, two, now bring the gun down. You can tell them what they're doing ("No, keep even your finger frozen exactly where it was when the gun went off") but because they're caught up in the excitement of the gun going boom, they just can't see it.

Nicole Hamilton wrote:

Richard H wrote:Getting new shooters to do follow-through is even harder than getting them to keep their fingers off the triggers until they're actually on target.

This is a whole other debate. I know it goes against basic firearms rules, but I was taught to put your finger on the trigger and even take up some slack before lifting the gun to the target. At least pertaining to International shooting. If you wait until you are on target to engage the trigger you will add precious time to your hold and deteriorate your technique. Everything should be set to go before you lift the gun.

I agree keeping your finger off the trigger should be taught to new shooters since their techniques are not as refined, but more skilled shooters can apply pressure to the trigger prior to lift. It has also been said, if you haven't put a round into the ground, you aren't getting on the trigger enough. Some people will understand this, I am sure some will find this very controversial.

Mike Douglass

I screwed up that quote...Nicole gets credit for it, not Richard...sorry Richard.

Mike Douglass

Mike Douglass wrote:I know it goes against basic firearms rules, but I was taught to put your finger on the trigger and even take up some slack before lifting the gun to the target.

That's okay, I know what you're talking about. I begin to move my finger as I raise the gun and I'm definitely starting to feel the trigger and take up some of the first stage before I'm on target in timed and rapid strings in BE and SP. Otoh, I'm a lot more careful with the 50g trigger in my free pistol. :)

There's sometimes a difference between the simple rule you'll teach to a beginner and the more nuanced version that experienced shooters will follow. (Another example that comes to mind is the NRA's "never store guns and ammo together" rule; they're thinking about people who hide a gun in their closet under a spare blanket, not someone with a 2000-pound safe.)

My shot process became a lot smoother once I started taking up slack prior to the lift. Erich Buljung like to teach that.

Mike Douglass

I can understand why you wouldn't want newbies touching the trigger until they are on target.

My finger goes on the trigger as I read myself while the gun is still pointing at the bench, the first stage is taken up at the apex of my lift and the rest while on target.

With respect to followthrough, I see a great advantage here for the electronic triggers. Once the shot has broken, many mechanical triggers produce a marked drop in trigger pressure as a result of the sear having been disengaged. With the electronic triggers, since we're only pulling against spring tension, the effective trigger weight remains somewhat constant, or actually increases. The net result is that during followthrough the shooter of an electronic trigger can continue to apply pressure to the trigger and effectively take the shot again before lowering the pistol. Obviously for semi-auto pistols one needs to ensure the sear hasn't re-engaged before doing this otherwise a second shot WILL be fired! On single-shots like AP and FP it's a trick that works quite well.

Oh, one other point... I was able to watch one club-level shooter who had no followthrough at all. The gun dropped as soon as the shot broke. After a while he actually started dropping the pistol before the shot would break, resulting in some embarassingly-low shots. Once he was made aware of the error of his ways he started to practice following through and the improvement in performance was substantial.

Follow-through is a mental and sighting process. Basically, keep the front sight locked up through the shot and the recoil stroke, then realign the shot. If you have something like a Morini AP or FP, you can shoot a live round, then release the trigger and immediately shoot a dry fire shot - which should help the follow-through.

That being said, the best follow-through drill is to get a flintlock pistol. Master that, and you will shoot well with anything else. It's a post-graduate education in follow-through.

a new shooter may not have the training to be able to control their pressure on the trigger finger as well as an experienced shooter. you may have more of a safety issue with a new shooter. my opinion is that applying pressure and knowing how much prior to a lift will come after one developes a good feel for the amount of pressure necessary tp break the shot. there are many other aspects of the technique to develop before attempting this technique that requires a developed "feel" for the trigger.

Mike Douglass

Mike Douglass wrote: This is a whole other debate. I know it goes against basic firearms rules, but I was taught to put your finger on the trigger and even take up some slack before lifting the gun to the target. At least pertaining to International shooting. If you wait until you are on target to engage the trigger you will add precious time to your hold and deteriorate your technique. Everything should be set to go before you lift the gun.
Mike Douglass

Mike,

Since you're taking up the first stage while the pistol is still on the bench, isn't what you're doing then is making the trigger action a single-stage issue? While the act of taking up the first stage is still part of your shot plan, one key element (if not *the* key element) of the shot process (pressing the trigger) is reduced to a single-stage event.

I find your approach interesting as I'm beginning to believe the biggest problems I've had with shooting come from using a two-stage trigger.

Stan