As a professional FireFighter (and shooter) I have been researching the filling of air pistol cylinders, both for competitions and practices. There are regulations that cover these things....and in the majority of cases these regulations are not being followed.
I personally have seen instances of juniors filling their cylinders, unsupervised. NOT A GOOD IDEA! Juniors should not be allowed to fill cylinders...either air or co2 from high pressure tanks. Adults only.
I have also personally witnessed an air cylinder that was not screwed on tight enough, and the scuba tank opened. The adult got scared. The cylinder rolled across the floor until I grabbed it.
In Summary....
There needs to be better regulations put in place before someone gets hurt. We as a shooting community better get a handle on this, or, the powers that be will set the rules.
Filling adapters are required to be "approved" for all high pressure cylinders. I have found very few that have the required stamps on them. What happens if they fail, and someone gets hurt? Who pays the bills??
I know the ISSF is starting to look at this. The problem is that every country has different rules and regulations.
Here is my recommendations on the matter]
1) Juniors are not allowed to fill cylinders of any description.
2) A designated area for filling be set up AWAY from the main competitors area and match.
3) Certified filling adapters be used.
4) Filling tanks be properly secured to prevent them from falling over, etc
5) At big matches, designated people fill the cylinders. People DO NOT understand that you do not "rapid fill" an air cylinder....we don't in the fire service, as we have learned what can happen!
6) When filling cylinders from other tanks (air or CO2) eye protection should be worn at all times.
-- Depending on the regulations in force in your country/state/province you may be required to have a "safety cover" that is to be used over top of the cylinder as it is being filled! ---
Hydro Testing.....
Another thing that may rear its ugly head soon. The Air Cylinders we use with our pistols/rifles "may" need to be hydro tested every 3 to five years. Has anyone researched this?
I am sure everyone has heard the stories about what can happen to a high pressure cylinder that has fallen over, the valve breaks off, and it becomes a missile....DO NOT for one second think that the small air cylinders cannot do significant damage.
Think about this....
What is it that everyone does when filling their air cylinder from a SCUBA tank? They bend over, crank the valve open, and stare at the guage.
What is the weakest point in that cylinder????It's the air guage. So if it has been slightly damaged, and decides at that moment in time to break, someone MAY get some stuff flying in their face, or worse.
Accident prevention has always been paramount to the shooting community. We pride ourselves on range safety and firearms handling. True, high pressure air cylinders are relatively new to the sport.
We need to set some standards that are fairly easy to implement, and yet keep this safe for everyone. As we all know, insurance companies tend to look for the easy way out when covering accidents....so lets not give them the opportunity.
My personal feelings are that we have been lucky so far...lets get the "luck" out of the equation!
Further comments on this are appreciated.
Filling of Air and CO2 Cylinders at Matches and Other Venues
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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Richard Newman
Cylinder filling
Keith,
I agree completely. You are right on all counts. From the legal point of view, I have never heard of any precedent or ruling on damages or injury in a shooting range environment. Maybe some attorney on this site can answer. But I do worry about certification and testing of air/CO2 gun cylinders by state legal fiat. I doubt that any current testing facility has ever tested these small cylinders, and given the cost of getting my CO2 tank retested every few years, I hate to think of what it will cost to get a set of cylinders tested as well. This is something which needs attention by some legally skilled folk.
RN
I agree completely. You are right on all counts. From the legal point of view, I have never heard of any precedent or ruling on damages or injury in a shooting range environment. Maybe some attorney on this site can answer. But I do worry about certification and testing of air/CO2 gun cylinders by state legal fiat. I doubt that any current testing facility has ever tested these small cylinders, and given the cost of getting my CO2 tank retested every few years, I hate to think of what it will cost to get a set of cylinders tested as well. This is something which needs attention by some legally skilled folk.
RN
Re: Filling of Air and CO2 Cylinders at Matches and Other Ve
1.Well I know the matches where I shoot and most do not offer compressed air in scuba tanks, I've yet to see anyone bring their own.KeithS wrote:As a professional FireFighter (and shooter) I have been researching the filling of air pistol cylinders, both for competitions and practices. There are regulations that cover these things....and in the majority of cases these regulations are not being followed.
I personally have seen instances of juniors filling their cylinders, unsupervised. NOT A GOOD IDEA! Juniors should not be allowed to fill cylinders...either air or co2 from high pressure tanks. Adults only.
I have also personally witnessed an air cylinder that was not screwed on tight enough, and the scuba tank opened. The adult got scared. The cylinder rolled across the floor until I grabbed it.
In Summary....
There needs to be better regulations put in place before someone gets hurt. We as a shooting community better get a handle on this, or, the powers that be will set the rules.
Filling adapters are required to be "approved" for all high pressure cylinders. I have found very few that have the required stamps on them. What happens if they fail, and someone gets hurt? Who pays the bills??
I know the ISSF is starting to look at this. The problem is that every country has different rules and regulations.
Here is my recommendations on the matter]
1) Juniors are not allowed to fill cylinders of any description.
2) A designated area for filling be set up AWAY from the main competitors area and match.
3) Certified filling adapters be used.
4) Filling tanks be properly secured to prevent them from falling over, etc
5) At big matches, designated people fill the cylinders. People DO NOT understand that you do not "rapid fill" an air cylinder....we don't in the fire service, as we have learned what can happen!
6) When filling cylinders from other tanks (air or CO2) eye protection should be worn at all times.
-- Depending on the regulations in force in your country/state/province you may be required to have a "safety cover" that is to be used over top of the cylinder as it is being filled! ---
Hydro Testing.....
Another thing that may rear its ugly head soon. The Air Cylinders we use with our pistols/rifles "may" need to be hydro tested every 3 to five years. Has anyone researched this?
I am sure everyone has heard the stories about what can happen to a high pressure cylinder that has fallen over, the valve breaks off, and it becomes a missile....DO NOT for one second think that the small air cylinders cannot do significant damage.
Think about this....
What is it that everyone does when filling their air cylinder from a SCUBA tank? They bend over, crank the valve open, and stare at the guage.
What is the weakest point in that cylinder????It's the air guage. So if it has been slightly damaged, and decides at that moment in time to break, someone MAY get some stuff flying in their face, or worse.
Accident prevention has always been paramount to the shooting community. We pride ourselves on range safety and firearms handling. True, high pressure air cylinders are relatively new to the sport.
We need to set some standards that are fairly easy to implement, and yet keep this safe for everyone. As we all know, insurance companies tend to look for the easy way out when covering accidents....so lets not give them the opportunity.
My personal feelings are that we have been lucky so far...lets get the "luck" out of the equation!
Further comments on this are appreciated.
2.The one match that does offer air, does offer it in a room away from the firing line.
3. A couple of clubs I know use to (and may still) have CO2 , but as its not as popular as compressed air I've never seen anyone use it.
4. Our club has CO2 it is stored in a locked room , the cylinder is secured to a rack, has a guard on the valve and is only dispensed by the two members that have CO2 pistols.
5. For compressed air we do have a pump available, which is stored in the same room as the CO2 and is used in that room. I recently saw a pump with the feet on backwards which pointed the cylinder at the users crotch (it was promptly fixed). The pump has a guage which is easily seen without putting your face in front of the cylinder.
6. My personal scuba tank is secured in my office. The cylinders when being filled are pointed at a wall and I always stand behind the scuba tank. I've never put my face in front of the cylinder to watch the guage.
As a Health and Safety professional I agree that these are to be treated with respect (they can kill in an instant). I do beleive that there was a fatality in the US (paintball I believe) a year or two ago (someones mother I beleive).
I can't speak for your area but around here it doesn't seem as bad you describe in your area.
I don't think you'll ever be able to hydrostatically test the cylinders (cheaper than replacing them). I know I'm seriously just considering replacing mine every 5 or so years. ( I shoot 3-5 times/ week on average)
I'm not quite sure by what you mean by "approved adapters", the adapter that came with your gun would be the manufacture's approved adapter, and they would be responsible should anything go wrong with it. Are you saying people in your neck of the woods are making their own adapters?
CO2 has been around for about 20 years and compressed around ten, I wouldn't say that is new.
I know everyone says "its just common sense", unfortunately commons sense isn't common practice.
Filling air/CO2 Cylinders
What I mean by "adapters" is the adapters that connect from the SCBA cylinder (or other) to the adapter supplied with your pistol. I have seen a number of "wonderful" units....
Best statement I heard was "It was made by a welder/millright friend of mine who guarantees it is better than the purchased ones".
I love statements like that....
It sounds like your range has some rules in place that are excellent. Ours is the same. However, I have travelled to a number of matches where I have told our juniors to be careful....and rightfully so.
In many cases the danger areas seem to appear at the matches not being held on a "range"...example: a school gym. Then it seems that (at times) there are issues.
You are right about hydro testing. However, until someone takes a cylinder to a company that does hydro testing to see what they would charge, we will not know. The hydro testing of Fire Dept SCBA bottles is not expensive....neither is the hydro of fire extinguisher cylinders.
From my perspective we as a shooting community need to set some basic safety rules for filling cylinders. They need to be incorporated into our rule/technical specs books. Just like we have rules for shooter safety on the shooting line.
Currently we have "nothing" to fall back on....and in your position you know that is bad.
At the next large match you are at, sit back and observe how people fill their cylinders. You will be suprised at the number of adults who will bend over and watch the pressure gauge as the cylinder is filling! (never mind having the cylinder lined up so it points across the room)
Also....
At the Canadian National Pistol Championships held last July, we would not allow any air tanks for filling on the premises....we had four hand pumps available for people to use.
It took some explaining...but people understood where we were coming from (for the most part).
In my research of regulations, as I said, every country/state/province has their own regulations. These vary from being very relaxed to being very stringent (ie: designated filling people must be certified).
Best statement I heard was "It was made by a welder/millright friend of mine who guarantees it is better than the purchased ones".
I love statements like that....
It sounds like your range has some rules in place that are excellent. Ours is the same. However, I have travelled to a number of matches where I have told our juniors to be careful....and rightfully so.
In many cases the danger areas seem to appear at the matches not being held on a "range"...example: a school gym. Then it seems that (at times) there are issues.
You are right about hydro testing. However, until someone takes a cylinder to a company that does hydro testing to see what they would charge, we will not know. The hydro testing of Fire Dept SCBA bottles is not expensive....neither is the hydro of fire extinguisher cylinders.
From my perspective we as a shooting community need to set some basic safety rules for filling cylinders. They need to be incorporated into our rule/technical specs books. Just like we have rules for shooter safety on the shooting line.
Currently we have "nothing" to fall back on....and in your position you know that is bad.
At the next large match you are at, sit back and observe how people fill their cylinders. You will be suprised at the number of adults who will bend over and watch the pressure gauge as the cylinder is filling! (never mind having the cylinder lined up so it points across the room)
Also....
At the Canadian National Pistol Championships held last July, we would not allow any air tanks for filling on the premises....we had four hand pumps available for people to use.
It took some explaining...but people understood where we were coming from (for the most part).
In my research of regulations, as I said, every country/state/province has their own regulations. These vary from being very relaxed to being very stringent (ie: designated filling people must be certified).
Keith,
As you say it varies from country to country. In the UK all scuba tanks I've seen are secured to walls, but I would doubt they all are. I thought some of the compressed air gun manufacturers suggested something like a ten year test. I'm no expert on the process of testing but the cylinders probably need internal examination - especially if used with a pump, due to the moisure build up. It is internal corrosion that would be more of a concern to me than anything else and I believe the hyrdo tests you mention wouldn't pick that up.
As an aside airgun cylinders are currently not uniquely identified (I think) and don't have a date of manufacture so I'm not quite sure how you can track them or certificate them - I've got four for example but assuming I'm correct about lack of ID, I could just get one tested and no one would be any the wiser.
Rob.
As you say it varies from country to country. In the UK all scuba tanks I've seen are secured to walls, but I would doubt they all are. I thought some of the compressed air gun manufacturers suggested something like a ten year test. I'm no expert on the process of testing but the cylinders probably need internal examination - especially if used with a pump, due to the moisure build up. It is internal corrosion that would be more of a concern to me than anything else and I believe the hyrdo tests you mention wouldn't pick that up.
As an aside airgun cylinders are currently not uniquely identified (I think) and don't have a date of manufacture so I'm not quite sure how you can track them or certificate them - I've got four for example but assuming I'm correct about lack of ID, I could just get one tested and no one would be any the wiser.
Rob.
Rob, I don't know what pistol you are shooting but my Steyr cylinders all have dates on them and serial numbers.
Well when you hydro test a cylinder you have to open it up and a visual inspection would be done at that time. A Hydro test would usually find any signifcant amount of corrosion or fatigue as this would weaken the cylinder and it would fail.
The only semi-plausible solution is if the manufactures set up an exchange program where you could exchange cylinders, and they could properly inspect and test them and if they pass put them back in the program. I wouldn't hold my breath though.
Well when you hydro test a cylinder you have to open it up and a visual inspection would be done at that time. A Hydro test would usually find any signifcant amount of corrosion or fatigue as this would weaken the cylinder and it would fail.
The only semi-plausible solution is if the manufactures set up an exchange program where you could exchange cylinders, and they could properly inspect and test them and if they pass put them back in the program. I wouldn't hold my breath though.
Re: Filling of Air and CO2 Cylinders at Matches and Other Ve
I have thinking along these lines recently.KeithS wrote: snip* Hydro Testing.....
Another thing that may rear its ugly head soon. The Air Cylinders we use with our pistols/rifles "may" need to be hydro tested every 3 to five years. Has anyone researched this?
The cylinders for my LP10 are marked with a 6 digit serial number and then a single digit 3 [ in a circle ], then 10 [ space ] 00 .
I'm guessing that this represents a manufacturing date of October 2000, so I think that I'll budget to replace them in the next year.
Re: Filling of Air and CO2 Cylinders at Matches and Other Ve
My LP10 cylinders actually have the date on them 09/2001 and 05/2001 and my LP 5 cylinders (pre manometer) have 11 00 on both (were the guage is on newer cylinders).bruce wrote:I have thinking along these lines recently.KeithS wrote: snip* Hydro Testing.....
Another thing that may rear its ugly head soon. The Air Cylinders we use with our pistols/rifles "may" need to be hydro tested every 3 to five years. Has anyone researched this?
The cylinders for my LP10 are marked with a 6 digit serial number and then a single digit 3 [ in a circle ], then 10 [ space ] 00 .
I'm guessing that this represents a manufacturing date of October 2000, so I think that I'll budget to replace them in the next year.
AP40 Air cylinder
The User Manual that came with my Hämmerli AP40 states, "The duration of life of the air tank is 20 years."
Additionally, the cylinder (air tank) is engraved, "Lebensdauer max. 20 Jahre"
I do not know German, but I suspect this latter phrase confirms the statement in the manual.
Also engraved on the cylinder is: Prüfdatum 01.02
I suspect this is the date the cylinder was proof tested, but is that January of 2002 or 2001 February?
Additionally, the cylinder (air tank) is engraved, "Lebensdauer max. 20 Jahre"
I do not know German, but I suspect this latter phrase confirms the statement in the manual.
Also engraved on the cylinder is: Prüfdatum 01.02
I suspect this is the date the cylinder was proof tested, but is that January of 2002 or 2001 February?
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F. Paul in Denver
Seems like there are two issues here - (1) equipment compliance with industry standards and (2) supervision.
In my view, allowing unsupervised juniors to refill air cylinders could easily be considered an unreasonable risk in the eyes of a jury who may have little or no experience with the shooting sports.
I have personally seen juniors lining up to refill pistol and rifle cylinders from unsecured tanks located in small, cramped and crowded spaces. TO make matters worse, I've seen them engage in typical teenage horseplay while doing it. It is a disaster waiting to happen.
I've always been surprised with the level of supervision provided on the firing line when compared to supervision at the refilling station. The disparity really makes no sense when you consider how much more devastating a refilling accident can be as compared to a stray shot from an air gun.
I concede that I dont know enough about the technical aspects of the equipment but I will say this - it has been my experience that jurors tend to be very hard on adult defendants who do not follow all minimum safety precautions when when they invite others, especially youngsters, to a facility to engage in "inherently dangerous activity." It would be an easy argument to make that refilling an air cylinder is inherently dangerous given the risks involved. A serious injury to a young person or to a non participating bystander would make the jury even more inclined to find negligence in a a close case.
I think Keith makes some excellent points and I hope he never gets to utter the words, "I told you so."
Personal injury law does not require people to be perfect - just reasonable.
F. Paul in Denver
In my view, allowing unsupervised juniors to refill air cylinders could easily be considered an unreasonable risk in the eyes of a jury who may have little or no experience with the shooting sports.
I have personally seen juniors lining up to refill pistol and rifle cylinders from unsecured tanks located in small, cramped and crowded spaces. TO make matters worse, I've seen them engage in typical teenage horseplay while doing it. It is a disaster waiting to happen.
I've always been surprised with the level of supervision provided on the firing line when compared to supervision at the refilling station. The disparity really makes no sense when you consider how much more devastating a refilling accident can be as compared to a stray shot from an air gun.
I concede that I dont know enough about the technical aspects of the equipment but I will say this - it has been my experience that jurors tend to be very hard on adult defendants who do not follow all minimum safety precautions when when they invite others, especially youngsters, to a facility to engage in "inherently dangerous activity." It would be an easy argument to make that refilling an air cylinder is inherently dangerous given the risks involved. A serious injury to a young person or to a non participating bystander would make the jury even more inclined to find negligence in a a close case.
I think Keith makes some excellent points and I hope he never gets to utter the words, "I told you so."
Personal injury law does not require people to be perfect - just reasonable.
F. Paul in Denver
Re: AP40 Air cylinder
Yes, there is a "life duration" for all pressurized cylinders. At that point, the cylinder is to be made unuseable....ie: drill a hole in it. However, during the 20 year life of the cylinder, there is to be hydrostatic testing done. Based on the material used in the cylinders, they fall under the 5 year testing cycle from what I can see.Mike T. wrote:The User Manual that came with my Hämmerli AP40 states, "The duration of life of the air tank is 20 years."
Additionally, the cylinder (air tank) is engraved, "Lebensdauer max. 20 Jahre"
I do not know German, but I suspect this latter phrase confirms the statement in the manual.
Also engraved on the cylinder is: Prüfdatum 01.02
I suspect this is the date the cylinder was proof tested, but is that January of 2002 or 2001 February?
There is a number of testing companies out there...taking a cylinder to one of them will give you an idea of the costs involved.
Our juniors/adults fill for the most part with the hand pumps. The amount of crap that comes out of the bleeder drain after a couple months use makes me wonder about what is going into the cylinder itself...as there is no air filters on the pumps...hmmm.
SCUBA tanks are filled from compressors with air/moisture filters on them. Essentially that makes it more reasonable to expect there would be less chance of corrosion in the cylinders.
I am glad to see that Paul gave his insight towards this issue. Topics like this need to be identified to our National Organizations, and match co-ordinators at the state/provincial levels.
Whoa, F Paul in Denver!
Where did the Jury / Jurors come into this?
I know that we (jury) get accused and blamed for of all sorts of things, but this is taking transferrence of responsibity a bit too far.
If, as you post "...I have personally seen juniors lining up to refill pistol and rifle cylinders from unsecured tanks located in small, cramped and crowded spaces. TO make matters worse, I've seen them engage in typical teenage horseplay while doing it. It is a disaster waiting to happen." - what action did YOU (!) take?
Additionally, I have some problem with "... jury who may have little or no experience with the shooting sports."
I have been involved with the training of Range Officers, national Judges, and international Judge qualification for a number of years and I have never experienced any instance where applicant ISSF judges (jurors) have presented at at a Judges course, let alone gain qualifications WITHOUT a great deal of experience with the shooting sports.
I take umbrage.
Spencer
Where did the Jury / Jurors come into this?
I know that we (jury) get accused and blamed for of all sorts of things, but this is taking transferrence of responsibity a bit too far.
If, as you post "...I have personally seen juniors lining up to refill pistol and rifle cylinders from unsecured tanks located in small, cramped and crowded spaces. TO make matters worse, I've seen them engage in typical teenage horseplay while doing it. It is a disaster waiting to happen." - what action did YOU (!) take?
Additionally, I have some problem with "... jury who may have little or no experience with the shooting sports."
I have been involved with the training of Range Officers, national Judges, and international Judge qualification for a number of years and I have never experienced any instance where applicant ISSF judges (jurors) have presented at at a Judges course, let alone gain qualifications WITHOUT a great deal of experience with the shooting sports.
I take umbrage.
Spencer
Easy Spencer
I understand your indignation IF Paul were talking judges and jurors at a match. However, I read his post as referring to situations in litigation. And in that venue, I am always concerned about over reaction.
This thread is an important one for all of us. We need to be careful to maintain a civil and thoughtful discussion and not jump to emotional reactions.
I am anxious to hear responses from shooting organizations, shooters and most specifically, manufacturers where some more definition emerges.
CraigE
This thread is an important one for all of us. We need to be careful to maintain a civil and thoughtful discussion and not jump to emotional reactions.
I am anxious to hear responses from shooting organizations, shooters and most specifically, manufacturers where some more definition emerges.
CraigE
Yes he is a lawyer and talking about the law not match officials.Spencer wrote:Whoa, F Paul in Denver!
Where did the Jury / Jurors come into this?
I know that we (jury) get accused and blamed for of all sorts of things, but this is taking transferrence of responsibity a bit too far.
If, as you post "...I have personally seen juniors lining up to refill pistol and rifle cylinders from unsecured tanks located in small, cramped and crowded spaces. TO make matters worse, I've seen them engage in typical teenage horseplay while doing it. It is a disaster waiting to happen." - what action did YOU (!) take?
Additionally, I have some problem with "... jury who may have little or no experience with the shooting sports."
I have been involved with the training of Range Officers, national Judges, and international Judge qualification for a number of years and I have never experienced any instance where applicant ISSF judges (jurors) have presented at at a Judges course, let alone gain qualifications WITHOUT a great deal of experience with the shooting sports.
I take umbrage.
Spencer
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Re: Easy Spencer
I asked this question on a different TT thread, but no one responded - do any directors/officials from USAS, NRA, ISSF visit Target Talk? I know that on Bullseye-L the director of pistol competition at NRA reads/posts messages and invites list members to attend meetings of the pistol competition committee. It would be great if our shooting organizations would participate in discussions like this one.CraigE wrote: I am anxious to hear responses from shooting organizations, shooters and most specifically, manufacturers where some more definition emerges.
Like Paul, I was appalled at the process for refilling cylinders at the 3X match held at the OTC. SCBA tanks were unsecured in a crowded area. If a tank had fallen over and cracked its valve, or a cylinder had failed, there could have been a number of serious injuries.
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F. Paul in DEnver
Spencer,
I was indeed referring to trial jurors and I apologize for the confusion. In re reading my post I can see how my transition from the range to the courtroom may have been somewhat unclear. Given the misunderstanding, your umbrage was pretty understandable.
As to my response to what I saw, I mentioned the situtation to the match director and suggested he appoint someone with some authority to supervise the process. Then I got the hell out of Dodge and went out to my car and hand pumped my cylinder full.
I saw no change as the match progressed over the next few days.
I think as shooters, we need to take a courteous but firm and proactive stand with match directors on this issue. If necessary, people who are qualified to supervise the process should be asked to volunteer their time to reduce the risks.
It would only take one serious accident to completely shut down a shooting venue. Given how precious few places we have left to shoot, those that remain should be vigorously protected.
Stay safe and shoot well.
F. Paul
I was indeed referring to trial jurors and I apologize for the confusion. In re reading my post I can see how my transition from the range to the courtroom may have been somewhat unclear. Given the misunderstanding, your umbrage was pretty understandable.
As to my response to what I saw, I mentioned the situtation to the match director and suggested he appoint someone with some authority to supervise the process. Then I got the hell out of Dodge and went out to my car and hand pumped my cylinder full.
I saw no change as the match progressed over the next few days.
I think as shooters, we need to take a courteous but firm and proactive stand with match directors on this issue. If necessary, people who are qualified to supervise the process should be asked to volunteer their time to reduce the risks.
It would only take one serious accident to completely shut down a shooting venue. Given how precious few places we have left to shoot, those that remain should be vigorously protected.
Stay safe and shoot well.
F. Paul
Aha! The penny drops (about jurors).
Part of the problem is that the average CA or CO2 shooter has no concept of what can go wrong, or what the potential damage can be from an 'accident' with compressed gases.
Most see it the same as filling a glass of water from a faucet - one of those things that you just do with little care.
I have seen
- shooters put in a homemade adapter piece to fill a 200bar cylinder from a (full) 300bar bottle, get distracted and fully charge the 200 bar cylinder and then bleed off the excess...
- the result of a shooter unscrewing a bottle before shutting off the cylinder (takes dedication) - took some digging out to get the cylinder out of the brick wall.
- ongoing use of dented cylinders...
Sigh
Regards,
Spencer
Part of the problem is that the average CA or CO2 shooter has no concept of what can go wrong, or what the potential damage can be from an 'accident' with compressed gases.
Most see it the same as filling a glass of water from a faucet - one of those things that you just do with little care.
I have seen
- shooters put in a homemade adapter piece to fill a 200bar cylinder from a (full) 300bar bottle, get distracted and fully charge the 200 bar cylinder and then bleed off the excess...
- the result of a shooter unscrewing a bottle before shutting off the cylinder (takes dedication) - took some digging out to get the cylinder out of the brick wall.
- ongoing use of dented cylinders...
Sigh
Regards,
Spencer
As a 4-H coach that uses both CO2 and Air, I do not allow my juniors to fill any of the cylinders. All my cylinders are filled prior to going to a match or practice and are then transported in a foam lined cooler. (not that I needed a cooler, but it is a handy transportable container.)
I will admit that when we have hit NRA, CMP, and USAS sanctioned matches, I do cringe when I see shooters (juniors) running over and filling cylinders in an open gym. I will now mention this to the match director ... there are usually rooms near the range that this can be done away from the crowds. I have mentioned to kids that if they continue to poke their head in front of the gauge while filling, they are tossing chlorine into the gene pool. Kinda suprises them to learn that that is the weakest link in their cylinders.
I do like the NRA Rifle silhouette rules which state that allb ulk cylinders (CO2 or Air) are prohibited from the line and shooting area.
In the interest of safety we do not allow anyone forward of the line when shooting (although it does seem like common sense), Maybe the rules committees should be encouraged to add this to the rules which govern their events if it involves any air/CO2 powered rifle or pistol.
Regarding the testing of the cylinders .... I cannot imagine that it is cost effective to hydro an airgun cylinder ... unlike a SCUBA tank that is designed to be tested in this way, most of the airgun cylinders are not and would probably destroy the seals and manometers. It is probably better for the manufacturers to give a "discontinue use" date. Again, then rules committees should/would need to place in the rules for equipment inspection that an expired cylinder is illegal.
Also SCUBA tanks are pretty standard items, if a shop has seen one, it's just about seen them all. Each and every airgun is different, and there is no way manufacturers would agree to just anyone hydro testing a cylinder. Small (aren't they all) airgun repair facilities will probably not want to invest in the expensive gear to do that testing.
As for the CO2 cylinders .... dunno. Much less pressure. If there is too much pressure in the tank, pop goes the burst disk. Impressive to watch, and scares the snot out of a shooter if it's in the gun, but not dangerous. The ones I use, for Avanti 888's, are cheap enough that I would not feel any grief if I had to buy a new one every five years .... Again, I can't imagine that it would be cost effective for a company like Daisy to refurbish those.
I will admit that when we have hit NRA, CMP, and USAS sanctioned matches, I do cringe when I see shooters (juniors) running over and filling cylinders in an open gym. I will now mention this to the match director ... there are usually rooms near the range that this can be done away from the crowds. I have mentioned to kids that if they continue to poke their head in front of the gauge while filling, they are tossing chlorine into the gene pool. Kinda suprises them to learn that that is the weakest link in their cylinders.
I do like the NRA Rifle silhouette rules which state that allb ulk cylinders (CO2 or Air) are prohibited from the line and shooting area.
In the interest of safety we do not allow anyone forward of the line when shooting (although it does seem like common sense), Maybe the rules committees should be encouraged to add this to the rules which govern their events if it involves any air/CO2 powered rifle or pistol.
Regarding the testing of the cylinders .... I cannot imagine that it is cost effective to hydro an airgun cylinder ... unlike a SCUBA tank that is designed to be tested in this way, most of the airgun cylinders are not and would probably destroy the seals and manometers. It is probably better for the manufacturers to give a "discontinue use" date. Again, then rules committees should/would need to place in the rules for equipment inspection that an expired cylinder is illegal.
Also SCUBA tanks are pretty standard items, if a shop has seen one, it's just about seen them all. Each and every airgun is different, and there is no way manufacturers would agree to just anyone hydro testing a cylinder. Small (aren't they all) airgun repair facilities will probably not want to invest in the expensive gear to do that testing.
As for the CO2 cylinders .... dunno. Much less pressure. If there is too much pressure in the tank, pop goes the burst disk. Impressive to watch, and scares the snot out of a shooter if it's in the gun, but not dangerous. The ones I use, for Avanti 888's, are cheap enough that I would not feel any grief if I had to buy a new one every five years .... Again, I can't imagine that it would be cost effective for a company like Daisy to refurbish those.
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Guest
Can you not just blow them up like a balloon? loljhmartin wrote:As a 4-H coach that uses both CO2 and Air, I do not allow my juniors to fill any of the cylinders. All my cylinders are filled prior to going to a match or practice and are then transported in a foam lined cooler. (not that I needed a cooler, but it is a handy transportable container.)
I will admit that when we have hit NRA, CMP, and USAS sanctioned matches, I do cringe when I see shooters (juniors) running over and filling cylinders in an open gym. I will now mention this to the match director ... there are usually rooms near the range that this can be done away from the crowds. I have mentioned to kids that if they continue to poke their head in front of the gauge while filling, they are tossing chlorine into the gene pool. Kinda suprises them to learn that that is the weakest link in their cylinders.
I do like the NRA Rifle silhouette rules which state that allb ulk cylinders (CO2 or Air) are prohibited from the line and shooting area.
In the interest of safety we do not allow anyone forward of the line when shooting (although it does seem like common sense), Maybe the rules committees should be encouraged to add this to the rules which govern their events if it involves any air/CO2 powered rifle or pistol.
Regarding the testing of the cylinders .... I cannot imagine that it is cost effective to hydro an airgun cylinder ... unlike a SCUBA tank that is designed to be tested in this way, most of the airgun cylinders are not and would probably destroy the seals and manometers. It is probably better for the manufacturers to give a "discontinue use" date. Again, then rules committees should/would need to place in the rules for equipment inspection that an expired cylinder is illegal.
Also SCUBA tanks are pretty standard items, if a shop has seen one, it's just about seen them all. Each and every airgun is different, and there is no way manufacturers would agree to just anyone hydro testing a cylinder. Small (aren't they all) airgun repair facilities will probably not want to invest in the expensive gear to do that testing.
As for the CO2 cylinders .... dunno. Much less pressure. If there is too much pressure in the tank, pop goes the burst disk. Impressive to watch, and scares the snot out of a shooter if it's in the gun, but not dangerous. The ones I use, for Avanti 888's, are cheap enough that I would not feel any grief if I had to buy a new one every five years .... Again, I can't imagine that it would be cost effective for a company like Daisy to refurbish those.