TargetTalk

Every time I see a used TOZ for sale in the U.S., it's going for $950 and up.

In France, I see them for $350. It can't cost $600, per gun, for importation.

What gives? The Form 6 is free.

Anyone out there ever import their own free pistol?

I tried that Form 6 thing and gave up. It's not that easy and convenient.
I do not know anybody who actually imported any guns through the Form 6 procedure within recent 5 years.
Are you getting a TOZ (a worn-out TOZ35 or a factory-new TOZ35M?) from France for $350 to $600?
I am really curious.

Unfortunately, that is the principle of supply and demand in the USA. I was able to buy mine at a gunshow several years ago for $550 (American dollars). Their price has jumped up with poularity. Airguns are really expensive too. The exception would be the IZH-46's, without which the high school team I coach would be using daisy 747'. I was able to buy two fwb 80's used but, that did wipe out our meager budget for the year. I have imported one pistol but, it was an airpistol (back in the 1980's).The best advice I can give you is to try to be resourceful and look for used guns for sale at various gunshows and gunclubs in your area.

In last Frankonia catalog, new TOZ is listed for 599 euros. ($720).There is also new Walter for 1395.

I scanned the catalog page.

- Ned

To be fair, the original post was referring to a used Toz.

David - I understood well the original posting. I just wanted to let know what is the cost for the new Toz in France, so the price of the second hand one can be evaluated.

On Pilkuguns the new TOZ with Morini grip is listed for $1250. The grip will add at least $150 to the price.

The Toz in France with Morini grip would be $850 ($700+$150)

That's make $400 difference between prices in France and USA. What makes the importation of new pistol cheaper in this case.

From my point of view, it makes much more sense to buy it new in USA then to hastle with importation issues to save $300 by buying second hand pistol.

Let's not forget guarantee issues.

- Ned

Ned wrote:David - I understood well the original posting. I just wanted to let know what is the cost for the new Toz in France, so the price of the second hand one can be evaluated.

On Pilkuguns the new TOZ with Morini grip is listed for $1250. The grip will add at least $150 to the price.

The Toz in France with Morini grip would be $850 ($700+$150)

That's make $400 difference between prices in France and USA. What makes the importation of new pistol cheaper in this case.

From my point of view, it makes much more sense to buy it new in USA then to hastle with importation issues to save $300 by buying second hand pistol.

Let's not forget guarantee issues.

- Ned

No offense, but that's in no small measure a bit arrogant. "Let them eat cake," and all that. In France, a shooter can pick up a used TOZ and get into Free Pistol for around $400. In the U.S., the entrant is supposed to pay out $1250 and be happy about it? Congrats on your wealth, but I need $850 elsewhere. Heck, the $400 for the used French gun is still a reach.

Why do people even trouble themselves with used cars when these new ones are much fresher? Indeed, why do people drive Chevrolets, when the Rolls Royce is unquestionably a finer motoring experience.

Free Pistol is unlike other shooting sports in that there is no entry-level equipment. There's excellent and top of the line, and that's it. In the spirit of Ned, I might ask, why anyone would trouble with an entry-level pistol, when a new TOZ is so much finer?

In the real world, if ISSF wants to expand in the U.S., it needs to cure the supply problem.

ISSF should buy boatloads of Drulovs and sell them in the U.S. at cost.

Lastly, I don't need a Morini grip right away. I'm sure the stock TOZ grip is a far sight better than a Hogue grip on a S&W revolver. That is, I can live with it.

So, it's the $1250 forbidding you from starting and you believe the Drulov to be the last choice?
I can do 522/60-shot/50-Meter with a Ruger Mark II 678GC and I know many U.S. shooters do even better than that. I also witnessed someone shooting 480+ with a Thompson Center Contender.
It's not the equipment, especially in FP.
If someone in U. S. can shoot 550+/60-shot/FP with a less than ideal gun and he needs a Morini 84e for WC 2006, I WILL BE MORE THAN GLAD TO HELP.

One more thing:
It is extremely intimidating to other shooters when you show up on the line with a Ruger MK II.

Kemmoa wrote:So, it's the $1250 forbidding you from starting and you believe the Drulov to be the last choice?
I can do 522/60-shot/50-Meter with a Ruger Mark II 678GC and I know many U.S. shooters do even better than that.

Outstanding. That's Expert with a Ruger. I rather thought it was pointless to try FP with such guns.

Do you drop the mag after every shot? What's your loading technique?

That's one rule that wouldn't hurt the sport to change.

I've fired Free Pistol matches with several "Standard" guns over the years, to include Ruger, S&W M41 and Hammerli 208s. I even made it into the 530s. The only "inconvenience" was that single loading was a little troublesome. You leave the magazine in so the slide will lock back and then place your round into the chamber and release the slide via the slide stop. For the Ruger you have to load through the restricted port. The M41 is only a little bit more open depending on the barrel/sight setup. The 208s was the easiest to load due to its openess.

I now have a TOZ-35 and haven't produced much better scores than before, but that's really because I spend no time training with it and only fire a match a couple times a year. But it is easier to load and no "extra" activity happens during the shot, like the slide coming back and the case ejecting.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

"I rather thought it was pointless to try FP with such guns."
-Sounds like you rather try those guns instead of the ISSF 50-meter pistol event aka FP.
True, those TOZ35, Morini 84E, and especially Pardini K-22's are very tempting lookies. Many shooters start FP just because it looks cool.

Per ISSF rules:
http://www.issf-shooting.org/rules/engl ... 5_2nd.html
and
http://www.issf-shooting.org/rules/engl ... 5_2nd.html
, as I understand,
any single-loaded 22 LR can be used in FP and I don't think this rule needs to be changed.
Therefore, nobody can deny you from taking an Olympic Gold with this:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976498462.htm
or this:
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=42998319

Both the Ruger MK II and T/C Contender are capable of consistent under 1" groupings at 50 meters out of the box. The only problem was ME!!! that could not produce a 565+, which neither a Morini, Hammerli, Pardini, or TOZ can help me to get.

Back to the $350 used TOZ in France. I do not know what the actual mark-ups are while (2003) I was paying $850 here in U.S. for a TOZ35M without its grip. I tried the Form 6 procedure because this Australian gentleman (Warren Potter's brother) used to have a bunch of great older Hammerli 100 series FP's (http://www.potfire.com.au/plist/default.htm). I gave up after 4 weeks of my effort. If you can bring in a good TOZ35 for $350 then go for it and I am happy for possible future price reductions in U. S..

"Do you drop the mag after every shot? What's your loading technique?"
-If you are really interested: I load one round into the chamber for each shot with the magazine in.

Smoking357 - Sorry if I sounded arrogant in my last post.

Let me say you before I continue, both my standard and free pistol are second hand and they are 25 years old models. $300 counts to me.

What counts for me too is that my pistols are reliable. Either I try them before I buy or buy them at gunsmith's and I have the gurantee. Buying overseas is something I would not dare. That's not even question of money.

When it comes to free pistols, take in account that they are more sensitive then other pistols. The problem with TOZ pistols is that spare parts are rare or not avialible. The shooter in my club is waiting already 6 months for a spare part.

I started with Drulov in my club, I was waiting almost a year for a gun permit to be able to buy it. I've switched later to more sophisticated pistol.

Ned

In the old days, 25-30 years ago, we used to be able to get Toz-35's through Canada for only a few hundred. The trick was whether or not the customs people realized it was from Russia and not Canada and hit you with a 50% tax. You could also go up to the distributor in Canada, shoot the gun, and then bring it back as a used firearm (I have been told, never tried this method myself).

As for entry level guns, I still think that the Hammerli 120 was one of the best made. When college students first started shooting free pistol in the 1970's this was the first gun (other than High Standards and Smith-41's) that were used. Top shooters shot in the 540's. I still have three of these that have not seen a shot through them in 15-20 years. When the Pardini PGP-75's came out they kind of made the 120's obsolete. You could also usually find a relatively inexpensive Hammerli 101 to 107 that would do a better job.