FWB AW93s

[pilkguns]

We expect our shipment of the new production AW93s to clear customs today. They have not been produced in recent months while FWB tested various enhancements to make it more RF freindly with shooters in different countries.

For those of you who have been waiting, and don't have a firm order in, Now is the time to give us a call.

[Mike McDaniel]

I hesitate to ask, but how much are they?

[SB]

Do you have a link to some good pictures of this gun?

What kind of groups may we expect on the test targets that come with the guns?

Thanks.

[Fortitudo Dei]

Do you have a link to some good pictures of this gun?

What kind of groups may we expect on the test targets that come with the guns?

Thanks.

I would be surprised if there will be any difference in either the appearance of the pistol or the size of the test fire group over the "current" AW93 (my group measures 15mm at its widest. Ten shot test at 25m I think).

The changes related to RF are likely to be related to the trigger setup (being able to adjust out the first stage) and possibly tightening up the recoil characteristics to speed up sight-picture recovery.

[SB]

[quote="Fortitudo DeiI would be surprised if there will be any difference in either the appearance of the pistol or the size of the test fire group over the "current" AW93 (my group measures 15mm at its widest. Ten shot test at 25m I think).
quote]

A 10 shot 15mm test target group at 25m, fired from a machine rest, is not impressive. I hope the current guns are better.

[Fortitudo Dei]

A 10 shot 15mm test target group at 25m, fired from a machine rest, is not impressive. I hope the current guns are better.

That's the factory test target. I've achieved about an 8mm group in my own testing of my AW93 after finding an ammo which it was particularly happy with. However how a gun fits, how a trigger is set-up, balance and recoil preferences, and (most importantly) technique will always have a far greater impact on results than how a gun shoots from a machine rest. Ranking ISSF Standard pistols or deciding on which to purchase on the basis of factory supplied test groups is simply daft.

[SB]

If factory test targets are not important (and "daft" to put any weight on them) why do the factories bother to supply them?
Maybe I am mistaken, but I was assuming that these guns are .22LR for which match grade ammo is tried and true. I hardly think that the factory would use lower grade ammo to test their best pistols. And, trigger setup (for factory's test targets) doesn't mean much to a machine.

I am glad that you are happy with yours, but factories should not even bother sending out such guns with 15mm test targets. You can get groups half that size off the shelves with the Sig Trailsides, that also come with test targets.
Enough said.

[Petri Federley]

I have one idea that should be considered when talking about test groupings. If you´re shooting either into precision target of rapid fire target you have 50mm or 100mm ten-ring respectively. If you have for example 14mm grouping it is quite enough to be honest(and usually you get a better one). For it to make any harm on you, you would have to able to shoot constantly in the exact center of the target, so that the offset would cause you constant disadvantage. Usually even for a international-class shooter the case is that you sometimes get a nine from a shot that was worth ten, and propably just as often vice-versa.
My Walther OSP2000 was shooting groups of 20mm-25mm with .22short and my best scores in competitions were up to 590 and still I could see mistakes made, not the grouping working against me.
The point: there are propably 10 guys in the pistol shooting world that could be affected by groupings and mostly in free pistol. In standard pistol or rapid fire – not that many.

[Guest]

SB,
Hows about you get back into bed, get out of the other side, then re-read the answers supplied to your questions.
Fortitudo Dei offered you some valid points.

[SB]

Petri - You are right, and I completely agree that there are very few shooters in this world that can shoot off hand to match the factory's test targets at 25m.

Others - no need for name calling. Follow this logic closely.... need to have an open mind before you read this:

1) Gun comes to you from factory with, say, a 10mm test target. Let's assume that it is ammo that the gun likes and that's the best it will do ie......it shoots at random in any direction and you cannot control it because that is what the gun is capable of doing, 10mm spread.

2) Top caliber shooter, who has the gun fully adjusted and everything is working well for him, and he is in top form. The point I am trying to make is that even for a shooter of this caliber, the difference could be between a 10 and an X, because after all, he cannot control the spread or compensate for the 10 mm random spread in the shots. I say "random" because the 10 mm test target is a random spread ie.....you don't know where the shot is going to land exactly, except that it will be in within the 10mm. Could be 5mm to the left or 5mm to the right, or dead center.

So, the whole point is that if you start off with a super tight grouping gun from the factory, then you have removed equipment from the equation and left human error.
On the other hand, when Fortitudo Dei is in top form at a match and he shoots a 10 with his 15mm gun when he thought it should have been an X, he must wonder about that test target....................!!

[Santa]

> If factory test targets are not important (and "daft" to
> put any weight on them) why do the factories bother
> to supply them?.....
>
> So, the whole point is that if you start off with a super
> tight grouping gun from the factory

Your naive assumption that test targets are credible proves their marketing technique a success.

[SB]

Santa said: "Your naive assumption that test targets are credible proves their marketing technique a success."

What are you envisioning... little elves punching holes on test targets? "Hey boss, I got another 50 done, and I even made them all look different - even threw in a couple of 15mm ones".

You may call me naive, but calling the manufacturers dishonest is absurd. The European gun manufacturers take great pride in their workmanship and would not stoop to fasifying test targets. Shame on you for even thinking that!
And, for the record, the FWB AW93 is one of the finest pistols made. I don't have one, but want one, although, I sure would not settle for one with a 15mm test target.

[visitor]

Please permit me to clarify what some are endeavoring to obscure. Take the limit case: a pistol with an infinitely large group on its test target. Would anybody consider this device for serious use? Of course not! The test group certainly does not tell everything, but to claim that it tells nothing (or nothing useful) is absurd in the extreme. Res ipsa loquitur.

[Guest]

SB,
Youre making a habit out of not reading peoples replys.
Fortitudo Dei said his supplied test target was 15mm but with ammo testing he can achieve 8mm.
What makes you believe he is shooting 15mm groups?

[Walter]

that was 15mm at its widest. And it's 5 shots. Subtract the bullet diameter for c to c.
Unless there is every bit of information as to how the gun was proofed, there really isn't much weight to the size of the target. A proprietary Håmmerli sliding rail test fixture will probably outshoot a Ransom rest with the same gun, and a ransom rest without trigger release often outshoots the same with the release.

[Futsker]

And, for the record, the FWB AW93 is one of the finest pistols made. I don't have one, but want one, although, I sure would not settle for one with a 15mm test target.

FWB AW93 is only clone of the IZH-HR-30 (Khaidurov standart pistol, Olympic Gold 1988, Seoul, SULUKVADZE Nino) with some details from HRB-88 (Khaidurov rapid fire pistol, Olympic Gold in 1988, Seoul, KUZMINS, Afanasijs) and Feinwerkbau's mistakes.

HR-82 (next version of IZH-HR-30) shoots no more than 4 mm between centres (9,6 mm wide) in 5-shoots groups from a machine rest. Unfortunately, this pistol was on sale only in Russia.

[Walter]

and Feinwerkbau's mistakes.

Good mistakes or bad mistakes?

[Futsker]

Good mistakes or bad mistakes?

I really told improvements ? ;)

I talked with Khaidurov many times and he has shown me main mistake which has make FWB in AW93. These mistake result to that many characteristics AW93 is worse, than prototype - IZH-HR-30. Probably, it's also the reason of that anybody from leading shooters does not shoot from AW93.

[Guest]

I talked with Khaidurov many times and he has shown me main mistake which has make FWB in AW93.

Can you explain what it was?

[Walter]

Probably, it's also the reason of that anybody from leading shooters does not shoot from AW93.

Some do.