Yep, there is such stuff for our guns. I actually met Scott Shaffer (of Gun Snot fame) briefly about a year ago at a PTO at Fort Benning in GA. I casually eavesdropped on his conversation with another shooter. Being new to the sport I try to absorb any new information (I still learn each day from my friends and mentors JP O'Connor and Tom Suswal). Well, recently I decided to try the products that Scott a graduate Chemical Engineer developed. So I ordered a kit. By happenstance Scott was going to be in the Marietta area visiting with family. His daughter "Alex" was competing in air rifle at Ft. Benning where I understand she turned in a stellar performance. Well, not only did Scott meet me to drop off the kit I ordered, but he offered to work on a few of my guns. First up was a Taurus Tracker revolver in .17HMR. The trigger action was OK for a factory job, almost 4 pounds SA, I watched Scott tear into the Taurus, and when he finished the results were nothing short of fantastic! Trigger pull was down at least 8 ounces and was very smooth. Next up was my Steyr LP10, while no changes in trigger weight were attempted there were areas that "Gun Snot" paste were applied that made the action much smoother, especially around pivot points, and metal to metal surfaces. The results were also incredible in the smoothness of the action. I can not wait to work on my S&W Mod. 41 (an "A" series 7" bbl with compensator). I will leave work on my TOZ 35M to experts like JP O'Connor. I can tell you when JP had all the bits and pieces on the work bench recently I thought this was either designed by a genius or a total mad man. I was not sure it would ever get back together or even work. Well it did (thank you JP). To say that I am now a devotee of Scott's products is an understatement. Boys and Girls, this stuff is a miracle, it works like a charm! While I can't say that Scott will personally deliver and work on your guns (I was just lucky) his knowledge of lubricants is phenominal. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" Many top shooters swear by his products (and let me tell you I am not a top shooter by any stretch), as I said this miracle stuff with micron sized Teflon really works. It is rare today to find a product that really works as advertised. Check out his web site: http://www.gunsnot.com Sure it is a wild product name, but the stuff is something else.
Neil Foster
"Gun Snot"
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Unfortunately, I have the opposite story to relate, both in terms of the product itself and it's promoter. Astute observers will realize that we (Pilkington Competition) were the original advertisers of GS in USAS News and were orginally planned to be the sole retail outlet. Information came to light at this year's SHOT show that caused us to question the product. The answers we received were not what we wanted to hear. Look for a forthcoming test of a number of major "super lubricants" from us in the near future.
In the meantime, if you really want to try this product, we can send you some for cost of postage only, since we can longer in good conscious sell it. I wished I could sell it and try to recover the more than $600 I have invested in it.
In the meantime, if you really want to try this product, we can send you some for cost of postage only, since we can longer in good conscious sell it. I wished I could sell it and try to recover the more than $600 I have invested in it.
I think our "Guest" comment was absolutely indicative of the mental talent of some lurkers. However, Scott I think that your comment is indicative of the fine service and attitude of your company. I have seen a lot of so-called gun lubricants at all kinds of ridiculous prices---it's a crying shame when people fall for such "junk" in the hopes that this will improve their shooting. Thanks for your honesty in exposing this and I'm sorry you took the hit for us all.
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Guest
Without regard to the quality or properties of this lubricant, I personally find the name to be more offensive than cute or just a slick marketing tool. Having seen the adverts for the product, I can't get past the name and have to wonder what would posess a company to launch a product with such a name. Sorry, just my $.02 and possibly my neuroses. I do agree fully with the comment regarding the fine service and integrity of our host.
When I first saw their ads last July I took note of the bold claims for their ear plugs. I buy plugs in bulk for our club, so I was intrigued by the claims of a NRR of 38. There was a discrepancy, however. One place in the website said NRR=38, another said NRR=33. I sent an email and asked for a clarification. The response - "Sorry, a typo. It's 38." About an hour later, I received a second email - "Sorry, it's really 32." So they went from "The highest NRR in the world" to "Just like all the others". If they can't even read the labels on their products, how can you believe the other claims?
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prairiehawk
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:31 am
- Location: jacksonville, fl
- Contact:
Gun Snot
Thsi is Scott Shaffer. Thanks Neil. Is it a mracle? no. A version of it has been used in satellites and missles for over 20 years. We just formulated it for the high performancne shoooter. Does it work as advertised? yes. A version of it is in on the Hubble sattelite (actually how they fixed it) the F15 et al. The lubricant is 99+% perfluorinated and does not mererely contain 2-15% PTFE. Does everyone love it no but mos that do try it love it. If it were sliced toast CNBC would have been at the door all ready. Is it snake oil, no, it does what it says it will do and does it very well.
Do I have postive testimonials from Top High power, pistol and rifle shooters from all over that actually used and still use the products ? yes.
Is it what it is, an advancement of lube and an improvement on the stuff Anchscutz ships with its OEM rifles for years only with an anti corrosion and EP additive in there that does not seperate. So if some the more educated folks think it is snake oil, start with your supposed tecnical contacts with Anschutz and then trash me on this board later. Mention the name Kluber when you talk to Anschutz, if you ever bother to do so. That sounds like work and some folks might be adverse to work as we have learned.
Does the name offend you? sorry? When you strat your own company and make your own lube formulation and pay or your own testing and invest your own $$ upfront you can call it whatever you like. We still live in America right? The Trademark office did not have an issue with it I will raise your concerns wth them. The directions do not implure you to put a label on your weapon of choice as to what lube you are using. Rem oil is found at Walmart, give it a try it sounds pretty PC to me.
This is America, you can vote with your wallet. Please do. We offer a 100% money back guarantee. So try it, if you don't like it keep it and we will send you money back.
A manufacturer of the ear plugs claimed one number (almost a year ago snce that happened BTW) and then decided that what they were actally selling to us was incorrect. Sorry. It was not an attempt to decieve rather a clerical mistake. The number for the ear plugs is 32 and correct. We do reccomend ear plugs for use as lubricants in your weapons just in case some one mis-reads this. We should maybe be clear on that issue. But the kids like them because they are soft and work, I use them, we sell them, 100's of folks use then without complaint. if 32 versus 38 is critical to you maybe a 25 cent foam ear plug is not what you need rather the $150 electronic ear muffs ae better suited for your application.
So whack away - i'm out. An thanks to the 100's of you all that do use it without complaint.
Do I have postive testimonials from Top High power, pistol and rifle shooters from all over that actually used and still use the products ? yes.
Is it what it is, an advancement of lube and an improvement on the stuff Anchscutz ships with its OEM rifles for years only with an anti corrosion and EP additive in there that does not seperate. So if some the more educated folks think it is snake oil, start with your supposed tecnical contacts with Anschutz and then trash me on this board later. Mention the name Kluber when you talk to Anschutz, if you ever bother to do so. That sounds like work and some folks might be adverse to work as we have learned.
Does the name offend you? sorry? When you strat your own company and make your own lube formulation and pay or your own testing and invest your own $$ upfront you can call it whatever you like. We still live in America right? The Trademark office did not have an issue with it I will raise your concerns wth them. The directions do not implure you to put a label on your weapon of choice as to what lube you are using. Rem oil is found at Walmart, give it a try it sounds pretty PC to me.
This is America, you can vote with your wallet. Please do. We offer a 100% money back guarantee. So try it, if you don't like it keep it and we will send you money back.
A manufacturer of the ear plugs claimed one number (almost a year ago snce that happened BTW) and then decided that what they were actally selling to us was incorrect. Sorry. It was not an attempt to decieve rather a clerical mistake. The number for the ear plugs is 32 and correct. We do reccomend ear plugs for use as lubricants in your weapons just in case some one mis-reads this. We should maybe be clear on that issue. But the kids like them because they are soft and work, I use them, we sell them, 100's of folks use then without complaint. if 32 versus 38 is critical to you maybe a 25 cent foam ear plug is not what you need rather the $150 electronic ear muffs ae better suited for your application.
So whack away - i'm out. An thanks to the 100's of you all that do use it without complaint.
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Guest
As a matter of fact, the difference between 32 dB and 38 dB is important, since it represents a four-fold increase in sound attenuation, owing to the logarithmic nature of things dB. Since the highest NRR plugs currently available are rated at 33, the 38 dB rating would have meant a stunning breakthrough in ear plug performance.
As for the electronic ear muffs, they carry ratings well below most ear plugs, but that's just a detail.
As for the electronic ear muffs, they carry ratings well below most ear plugs, but that's just a detail.
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Neil Foster
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:57 pm
- Location: Marietta, GA
Guests
I love all the cavalier, non-productive comments from "Guest"
I guess they are to embarassed to sign in with either a nom-de-plume, or a real log in. They probably know what their comments are worth. There are many who really try to contribute useful information both pro and con. And there are those who are bufoons. I hope this board does not become like others with a lot of sniping. I personally have learned a lot from many of the participants. Those that comment as "Guest" contribute nothing, and only detract from the usefullness of the board. I too, as many others hold Scott Pilkington and Warren Potter in very high regard, and value their feedback and counsel. Gee, I dropped two names, I am sure that "Guest" will chastise me again. Now ask me if I care one whit. End of sermon......Have a wonderful day!
I guess they are to embarassed to sign in with either a nom-de-plume, or a real log in. They probably know what their comments are worth. There are many who really try to contribute useful information both pro and con. And there are those who are bufoons. I hope this board does not become like others with a lot of sniping. I personally have learned a lot from many of the participants. Those that comment as "Guest" contribute nothing, and only detract from the usefullness of the board. I too, as many others hold Scott Pilkington and Warren Potter in very high regard, and value their feedback and counsel. Gee, I dropped two names, I am sure that "Guest" will chastise me again. Now ask me if I care one whit. End of sermon......Have a wonderful day!
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Fred
Re: Gun Snot
Scott,prairiehawk wrote:Thsi is Scott Shaffer.
This is America, you can vote with your wallet. Please do. We offer a 100% money back guarantee. So try it, if you don't like it keep it and we will send you money back.
It is admirable that you stand behind your product. Does this mean that Pilkingtons should be expecting a refund of the $600+ mentioned above - money they have spent for your product which they don't like? Honest question - I hope you will answer.
Fred
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the cute one
Why would Scott have to pay the money back… from what I heard it is bad turmoil not a bad product... the guarantee is for a bad product which gun snot isn't... in my opinion the complete opposite… I use gun snot in my guns and wont use anything else… just because the other stuff is crap…. The other lubes are good for all of what a day and I don’t think many people are willing to wait that much time and money for a product that wont even last until the end of the match
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prairiehawk
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:31 am
- Location: jacksonville, fl
- Contact:
scott was sent our agreed to 1/2 of the $600 via check. he cashed it and now claims he never got it. I also sent him $180 of free materials to get him going that he never paid for. I appreciate your concern but the issue is between him and me .
he begged me to take it to the Shot show and did nothing with it and I fired him. that is again between him and I.
Again i appreciate your concern, but the issue is between him and me and two reasonable folks can agreed to disagree. he copied everyone in the plante on the issue and I refused to play that game professionals do not copy 10 people blindly on wild claims and fained injury.
Again, Thanks for your concern if you want a sample to try for free send me you address and I will sent it to you for evaluation and if you don't like I wont be offended some folks dont like harmin either. Som folks do. How you are connected with Scots' issue escapes me, but understand if you become a customer and are not happy no blood no foul. Just don’t lie to me me than call my character into question to 10 folks copied in blind copy.
Take care
Scott
he begged me to take it to the Shot show and did nothing with it and I fired him. that is again between him and I.
Again i appreciate your concern, but the issue is between him and me and two reasonable folks can agreed to disagree. he copied everyone in the plante on the issue and I refused to play that game professionals do not copy 10 people blindly on wild claims and fained injury.
Again, Thanks for your concern if you want a sample to try for free send me you address and I will sent it to you for evaluation and if you don't like I wont be offended some folks dont like harmin either. Som folks do. How you are connected with Scots' issue escapes me, but understand if you become a customer and are not happy no blood no foul. Just don’t lie to me me than call my character into question to 10 folks copied in blind copy.
Take care
Scott
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Matt Emmons
Hi folks,
Looks like we have a nice misunderstanding going on here. I'm here to help clarify, if possible.
First, Gunsnot truly is a quality lubricant. Some who may believe that this is some "magic stuff" and hold it to that standard are mistaken. It's a lube, folks. However, it's a very good lube. A smallbore free rifle costs approximately $3000 today, the triggers are somewhere around $300. They're expensive, so they should be taken care of. Also, for some, competition is important to them. I've seen several of my friends over the years have trigger malfunctions in big competitions because their trigger had attracted dirt or something - basically, the trigger was not taken care of or lubed properly. In these situations, the gun malfunction cost them perhaps a competition they should have won or at least done well at. If one cleans their trigger even just once a year, the chance of malfunction goes down considerably. I support and regularly use Gunsnot because I think it's the best thing I've found. I recently cleaned my triggers on all my guns - the last time this was done was last July before the Olympics. That's 8 months of wear and tear, being all over the world, and in and out of gun cases. I used Gunsnot on the sear engagement and there was no dirt or grime in the Gunsnot, which is a problem of other greases. It doesn't seem to attract dirt or dust. No dirt or dust means a smooth trigger and less wear to the working parts. That is why I use it.
I also use it on my bolt. I lube various areas of the bolt to ensure smooth functioning. Some areas where I put on the bolt it aren't as critical as others, but I like a smooth bolt. The same goes for the action of my air rifle. I don't quite know how important using Gunsnot is from a wear standpoint, but I do know it makes the action work so much smoother. As needed, I also put it on sticky bolts. Bolts that squeak because they need lube.
The bottom line here is preventive maintenence. Competition rifles are a big investment - why not take care of them to the best of your ability? A malfunction could cost me in a big way - I'm going to do whatever I can to prevent it. I want to eliminate any variables so that the outcome of my competitions is left to my own athletic performance, not the equipment. The stuff seems to work, so I'm not complaining.
This is my experience with Gunsnot. Do me a favor, folks, please don't maliciously attack me because of my experience with this lube. I'm not trying to attack anyone - I'm just telling a version of the story. I'm not here writing because of emotion, as many seem to do, I'm trying to help reconcile misconceptions.
Thank you, and best wishes for all of you shooters,
Matt
Looks like we have a nice misunderstanding going on here. I'm here to help clarify, if possible.
First, Gunsnot truly is a quality lubricant. Some who may believe that this is some "magic stuff" and hold it to that standard are mistaken. It's a lube, folks. However, it's a very good lube. A smallbore free rifle costs approximately $3000 today, the triggers are somewhere around $300. They're expensive, so they should be taken care of. Also, for some, competition is important to them. I've seen several of my friends over the years have trigger malfunctions in big competitions because their trigger had attracted dirt or something - basically, the trigger was not taken care of or lubed properly. In these situations, the gun malfunction cost them perhaps a competition they should have won or at least done well at. If one cleans their trigger even just once a year, the chance of malfunction goes down considerably. I support and regularly use Gunsnot because I think it's the best thing I've found. I recently cleaned my triggers on all my guns - the last time this was done was last July before the Olympics. That's 8 months of wear and tear, being all over the world, and in and out of gun cases. I used Gunsnot on the sear engagement and there was no dirt or grime in the Gunsnot, which is a problem of other greases. It doesn't seem to attract dirt or dust. No dirt or dust means a smooth trigger and less wear to the working parts. That is why I use it.
I also use it on my bolt. I lube various areas of the bolt to ensure smooth functioning. Some areas where I put on the bolt it aren't as critical as others, but I like a smooth bolt. The same goes for the action of my air rifle. I don't quite know how important using Gunsnot is from a wear standpoint, but I do know it makes the action work so much smoother. As needed, I also put it on sticky bolts. Bolts that squeak because they need lube.
The bottom line here is preventive maintenence. Competition rifles are a big investment - why not take care of them to the best of your ability? A malfunction could cost me in a big way - I'm going to do whatever I can to prevent it. I want to eliminate any variables so that the outcome of my competitions is left to my own athletic performance, not the equipment. The stuff seems to work, so I'm not complaining.
This is my experience with Gunsnot. Do me a favor, folks, please don't maliciously attack me because of my experience with this lube. I'm not trying to attack anyone - I'm just telling a version of the story. I'm not here writing because of emotion, as many seem to do, I'm trying to help reconcile misconceptions.
Thank you, and best wishes for all of you shooters,
Matt
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Fred
Clarification
A clarification of why I commented on this topic:prairiehawk wrote:
Again i appreciate your concern, but the issue is between him and me.... How you are connected with Scots' issue escapes me
Scott
I don't know anything about the disagreement between Pilkingtons and Gun Snot, and I don't know anything about Gun Snot as a product. What I do know is that I have been a customer of Pilkingtons for a number of years. During that time, Pilkingtons have without fail treated me with the utmost courtesy, fairness, honesty and truthfulness. So when I see Scott Pilkington write that he is owed $600+, I believe him. And when I see Scott from Gun Snot write that he refunds to anyone who is dissatisfied with his product, I believe him as well, until proven otherwise. So there's an apparent discrepancy that bothered me, and I asked about it. What stake do I have in this? Only that when people treat me as well as the Pilkingtons have done, I consider them my friends.
Fred
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Neil Foster
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:57 pm
- Location: Marietta, GA
Gun Snot
Folks,
I had no idea that my post to talk about my experiences with Scott Shaffer and his products would stir up such a "tempest in a teapot"
I am indeed sorry that this has happened as response to a good experience I had.
No matter what someone sells, or has there will always be detractors, and that is OK, we live in a free society (at least most of us)
I personally do take exception to folks like the person who first replied to my post, using the guise of hiding by logging in as "Guest" using vulgar comments. This is not a place for stuff like that. Thanks to "Shin" for removing it. I would hope that our host changes the log in procedure so that one really has to log in under a name, or a nom de plume rather than use the guise as "Guest" so they can say obscene, or state malicious comments. I appreciate the comments made by Matt Emmons, he certainly is one to be respected for his knowledge and opinions, as I do apprecite the comments of those who may not have had a positive experince. That is how we learn.
I had no idea that my post to talk about my experiences with Scott Shaffer and his products would stir up such a "tempest in a teapot"
I am indeed sorry that this has happened as response to a good experience I had.
No matter what someone sells, or has there will always be detractors, and that is OK, we live in a free society (at least most of us)
I personally do take exception to folks like the person who first replied to my post, using the guise of hiding by logging in as "Guest" using vulgar comments. This is not a place for stuff like that. Thanks to "Shin" for removing it. I would hope that our host changes the log in procedure so that one really has to log in under a name, or a nom de plume rather than use the guise as "Guest" so they can say obscene, or state malicious comments. I appreciate the comments made by Matt Emmons, he certainly is one to be respected for his knowledge and opinions, as I do apprecite the comments of those who may not have had a positive experince. That is how we learn.
It may be the best thing so of you have ever used, and I'm glad for you.
For us it was quite the opposite.
In my world for work, a guy sends in a $20K machine gun that he needs work done on, you do the best work and send it back as close to new as possible and as reliable as possible. Time, sweat, knowledge, skill, and craftsmanship cover the first part, gun snot had NOTHING to do with the second part and required more work for us. I won’t get into it but free samples sometimes cost too much.
We have some left over, but unlike Pilk, we WILL NOT send it to you…because we wouldn’t use it and don’t really think it’s fair to make you use something we wouldn’t use or recommend ourselves.
I wouldn't even let this stuff near my cheap $3500 FWB small bore rifles.
For us it was quite the opposite.
In my world for work, a guy sends in a $20K machine gun that he needs work done on, you do the best work and send it back as close to new as possible and as reliable as possible. Time, sweat, knowledge, skill, and craftsmanship cover the first part, gun snot had NOTHING to do with the second part and required more work for us. I won’t get into it but free samples sometimes cost too much.
We have some left over, but unlike Pilk, we WILL NOT send it to you…because we wouldn’t use it and don’t really think it’s fair to make you use something we wouldn’t use or recommend ourselves.
I wouldn't even let this stuff near my cheap $3500 FWB small bore rifles.
First let me say this is not about Matt at all. I have nothing but respect and good feelings for Matt. No issues whatsoever before or since with him and I am glad to see him here re-affirming his belief in the product. It was his usage and endorsement that led to my involvement with the product last summer.
Next, I am trying to be real careful here, to keep this on a reasonable level, following the TT rules. As I have said in the past, I consider this a public forum, certainly not a bully pulpit for pilkguns, so we only post when we feel we have something to add to a conversation or when I see something that is wrong or harmful. And this was my intent with my first post on this subject. I tried to keep the information to the level of warning without getting into all the details, known or suspicioned. It seems that Scott Schaffer has not been content to leave it at that level and has even made some accusations against me and now I must go into a little more detail. A lot actually, so be prepared to read awhile if you want to know the story. This is being done from memory, because I am not home to check specific dates because actually I am down in Savannah, Georgia with my family doing some National Guard duty and I can tell you answering this is not high on my list of preferred activities at the moment…. And ALSO I hate to see airing of “dirty laundry” on a public forum, and dislike having to take up space on TT for that reason, but since statements have been made, I will post and let you see that I was behaving in a reasonable manner at all times.
Anyway, PCE, LLC paid for the first two GS ads in USAS News. Mr. Schaffer had agreed to pay for half of the ad cost by supplying me with product to sell equal to our agreed on wholesale price, so I should have got over $400 worth of retail product. (Imagine my surprise today when I read that he only sent me $180 worth of product.!!!) I did the ad creation and graphics over and above the cost of the ad insertion.
Several months go by, so sometime in December, I complain that I have not gotten any product to cover the agreed on half cost of the $600 I have spent out of pocket for ads, nor do I have any to sell if someone calls wanting to buy it (fortunately no one has yet called) . I also do not have any to evaluate to offer a first hand opinion to Anschutz about at the upcoming SHOT show at the end of January (Mr. Shaffer was desirous of having GS becoming a OEM product with Anschutz rifles). I finally receive the agreed on product about the 15th of December. No check was found nor expected as the product was to be the payment!!!!!.
Fast Forward to early February a few days after getting back from the SHOT show.
Well first, take a look at the GS website, about where Mr. Shaffer endorses Steve Moore’s gunsmithing services. http://gunsnot.com/serv01.htm
Here is an excerpt from the e-mail,( a couple of paragraphs are removed as not being related to subject at hand but I assure they in no way change the meaning of what is said, in fact, quite the opposite, but again I am trying to keep this on civil level)
“””””””. At SHOT, I learned several things, some I need to follow up on more. A guy from Raytheon came by and was telling Warren that perflouriante (SP) was not good for steel, would accelerate rust, had no anti-friction properties and would not stay in one place, that it would run everywhere and had nothing to do with Teflon. I was totally blown away. I have the guys card and am supposed to follow up with him this week.
Steve Moore was by and seemed surprised and put-out that you had a thing about him on your website, that implied endorsement of GS. He highly recommends something else, and said he would send me some to test. I am planning a doing a factory grease evaluation, one with with Steve Moores lubricant and one with Gunsnot, and proceed from there.
Anschutz did not really want to discuss GS, especially after this Raytheon guy was in the booth.”””””””””””
Mr. Shaffer replied later in the day with this shocker.
“””””””””””””””I was very disturbed with our conversation today and of course the outcome of the Shot Show. I was asked by 4 firms to take Gun Snot to the show but I gave it exclusively to you. You assured me that you had access to Anschutz to tell the Gun Snot story as no other person in the US could do because of your personal relationships with them. To hear that none of the pre-show objectives were accomplished but rather reversed in a negative way was a disaster. You could have called me from the show when the false issues with Raytheon or Steve or Matt arose, but chose not to and the opportunity with Anschutz was lost.
We agreed to use Pilkguns as a distributor to distribute the product, which your firm has failed to demonstrate a desire to do. You have yet to place it on your website as a new product and as of today you are planning a comparison to Mil-Spec TW25 for some reason that escapes me. I paid for the second USAS ad placement even though we were only to have done one and sent you free stock to get you going. I would like to request that stock back as well as any unused sales literature. We further request that you cease and desist in using the name Gun Snot™ on your website and sales promotion along with the name or image of Matt Emmons in connection with it as a distributor.
If you have any questions please feel free to contact me.
Regards
Scott
¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤
Scott Shaffer
Gun Snot, LLC
www.gunsnot.com
AOL IM frustrateddad1
"A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory" “””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
my first thought was “if you can’t stand the heat then get out of the kitchen”. My gracious, I asked some serious questions about his product and want to do a test comparison against other lubricants and now he wants to drop me! If his product will not stand up to a test against any other lubricant at the same or lower price level, then for sure it does not meet my “Quality has no regrets” motto. Also, I though the signature line was very telling to the core of Mr. Shaffer’s character. Anyway, I replied to his e-mail with this one. NOTE,, I am adding **** before and after my comments in his e-mail, it clear in the cut and paste, but not sure it will translate on TT.
**********Well Scott, if this is your response based on yesterday’s conversation, then for sure I and my firm do not wish to represent your product. It certainly smacks to me of the old saying , If you can’t take the heat, then get out of the kitchen. If you cannot answer legimitate questions about your product, then for sure I am not going to use my name and reputation to endorse it. I have a slogan that I created and I believe in both in products I purchase for myself, and products I sell in my business, and that is QUALITY HAS NO REGRETS. When a man comes up with valid industry credentials such as Raytheon and makes extremely negative comments the intents and uses about the major ingredient in your product, it is only to be expected that I would follow up to see what your side of the story was.
Other comments will be inserted as necessary below.**********
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott @ Gun Snot
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 9:20 PM
To: 'Scott Pilkington'
Cc: 'gina1'
Subject: Distribution
Dear Scott
I was very disturbed with our conversation today and of course the outcome of the Shot Show. I was asked by 4 firms to take Gun Snot to the show but I gave it exclusively to you.
*******Well I cannot vouch for the validity of this either way, but if you thought that you had a better firm to market your product to this market, then you should of chosen to do so.*******
You assured me that you had access to Anschutz to tell the Gun Snot story as no other person in the US could do because of your personal relationships with them.
********This is certainly twisting the truth. Sometime early in January you told me that you did not need me to even say anything at the SHOT show to Anschutz because Matt had it all sewed up with them. I in return said that I knew Matt had told them about the product at Athens, that I had followed up with Anschutz with my suggestions in late August, at which time I had no experience with your product. The outcome of my conversation with Anschutz at that time was that I was to try it out and evaluate it, and let them know the results of my 5 month long test at the SHOT show. I then said that Matt’s relationship to Anschutz was very good obviously because of his shooting credentials, but that I had been working with Anschutz at gunsmith level for 15 years, and as a dealer level for 6 years and was even sharing booth space with them so I thought that I had more than my fair share of creditbility with Anschutz myself AND I still did not have any product to evaluate or say I had personal experience with, so at best, we were going have 20 day evaluation period prior to the SHOT show conversation with Anschutz, not the anticipated 5 month one. Your failure to get me product over a 4 month period had far more to do with SHOT show outcome than anything I did or could have done, **********
To hear that none of the pre-show objectives were accomplished but rather reversed in a negative way was a disaster.
********I am not sure what pre-show objectives were planned that did not get met other than my photo essay that I planned to make for my website on how to use the material. This could not have had effect on SHOT show results in any way*********
You could have called me from the show when the false issues with Raytheon or Steve or Matt arose, but chose not to and the opportunity with Anschutz was lost.
*******I really thought it strange that you wanted to make this connection with Anschutz, yet, were not willing to take time to come and talk to them personally. My time at such an event is valuable, the SHOT show is a busy place, and I did not see that any of the issues mentioned above warranted a phone call to you during that period. Whether any of the three issues above are false or not, I don’t know, and apparently based on this e-mail I will never know for sure, but based on your reaction, I can only draw one conclusion.*****
We agreed to use Pilkguns as a distributor to distribute the product, which your firm has failed to demonstrate a desire to do.
*****I spent over $600 in advertising your product , plus ad creation time, without any compensation from you and only finally received the agreed on product for your half of the ads after my complaints to you about lack of payment, and running short of time to evaluate the product for the Anschutz discussion. A conversation BTW, which would have netted me nothing in return, since all your sales to them would have been direct without need of a retailer like myself. *******
You have yet to place it on your website as a new product and as of today you are planning a comparison to Mil-Spec TW25 for some reason that escapes me.
*******Because someone whom you apprarently put great stock in, Steve Moore, as endorsed on your website, who does not recommend Gunsnot or feel it’s the best product on the market, DOES recommend and endorse TW-25. I thought a 3-way test, the factory lubricant , Gunsot and TW-25 would make a fair comparison, but your fear of my doing this test is certainly indicative of product’s abilities.********
I paid for the second USAS ad placement
******I am unaware of you paying for any ad to USAS, as we were invoiced and paid for the first two long before I got any payment from you. If you have paid Sara directly for an ad, then you need to clear this up with her, but its strange that it has not been mentioned before now. Even more so you have illustrated what kind of person you are by your conversation yesterday about the 3rd ad invoice that I received yesterday, something to the effect about “you did’nt authorize the third ad and I did’nt authorize this ad, so they will just have to eat the payment”, Screw USAS in essence. That is a poor way to do business when apparently you were the one who did not cancel or contact Sara as you told me you were going to do.*****
even though we were only to have done one
******this is a lie, as you were involved in the discussion for the second one, since we had to blur the medal images to satisfy USOC, and you even sent e-mails to Bob Mitchell pointing out other advertisemtents that were using the Athens medals.*****
and sent you free stock to get you going.
******You sent me stock to PAY for my agreed on share of the ads, only I after I complained of lack of payment and product in a e-mail dated Dec 12th, and even then it took several weeks to get the product here.******
I would like to request that stock back as well as any unused sales literature.
******Upon receipt of a check for your half of the ads, I would be glad to return the product. Make it $305 to cover return shipping*******
We further request that you cease and desist in using the name Gun Snot™ on your website and sales promotion along with the name or image of Matt Emmons in connection with it as a distributor.
*****This should is not a problem since as you have complained about above, we’re are not promoting it******
If you have any questions please feel free to contact me.
******No, I think you have answered any questions I might have had about you or your product.
Scott Pilkington****
Now, the really WEIRD thing happens. I receive a FAX of an E-Mail from Scott Shaffer. A fax on my fax machine, but I never, till this day, have received this e-mail by via e-mail. VERY STRANGE. My response to this faxed e-mail was e-mailed back to Mr. Shaffer, and you can read next. This is e-mail was sent to Scott Shaffer, his wife. Gina, my wife Rhonda, and my partner Warren. I also CC’ed Matt Emmons. At no point did I ever BCC anyone, although at this point everyone can see the paranoia being expressed, and the reason for wishing to distance myself from
“””””””””””All, (with my apologies to Matt for having to be drug into all this)
I received a fax just now from Scott Shaffer of an e-mail titled Check 1310 that shows to have been sent to me at 11.14 AM, yet at this moment 12.04 PM I have not received this e-mail in my inbox.
The e-mail states:
You were sent Dec 13th Check number 1310 the amount of $300 = the free stock. You cashed the check Dec 18th
End of e-mail
Rhonda has just checked our records and we have no knowledge or record of such a check being used or cashed. Scott and
Gina, If you have evidence otherwise of this or any other check being cashed through us, I sure want to know about it.
Scott Pilkington””””””””””””””””
I did not get an immediate response to this…. About a week later on FEB 15, I sent a follow-up e-mail with this question “””””””””””What are your plans regarding the merchandise? Are you sending a check to cover the ad so that I can return it to you or shall I special it off? What happened about this alleged check and deposit? If such a check was processed through here, I want to know about it, when and what bank processed it?. “””””””””””
I received this reply from Mr. Shaffer later in the same day
“”””””””The check was in the package of supplies that I sent and it was check 1310 for $300. I remembered seeing it being cleared on the 18th, but all my year-end stuff is at the accountant so getting my hands on it right now is impossible without causing a mess with them. It was not a fictitious event and not said in malice, and spreading such a note around the countryside to dis-interested parties, putting the words of ‘screw USAS” into my mouth was not appreciated as it went to the core of my character and is contrary to my dealings with USAS at all levels. It was sent with the supplies. If you all did not in fact cash it, and I suggest that you do, then so be it. I am moving on.”””””””””””””
Very interesting that Mr. Shaffer changes his story about the check within just a few sentences. Therefore, IT INFURIATES ME THAT HE WOULD MAKE THIS PUBLIC ACCUSATIONS about said check!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sooooooooooooo, that’s it besides a bunch of research I tried to do about PTFE, perflorinated and Teflon (not necessarily all the same as I now understand, but I am for sure not a chemical engineer) and trying to research some of the credentials of both of these “industry professionals. My decision not to continue to sell this product based as much on the reactions of Mr. Shaffer to some honest questions, as well as my research about his product AFTER the fact, when I did not get the answers from him.
And if anyone desires to see the originals of these e-mails, you are welcome to contact me. Oh and one more thing, the name thing, I never really liked it either, but as God is my witness, I never made the gross connection of “GS, the one champions pick” in the ad till someone pointed it out to me at the SHOW show. Must of have been left over from the anesthesia. I can't believe I missed that.....
Next, I am trying to be real careful here, to keep this on a reasonable level, following the TT rules. As I have said in the past, I consider this a public forum, certainly not a bully pulpit for pilkguns, so we only post when we feel we have something to add to a conversation or when I see something that is wrong or harmful. And this was my intent with my first post on this subject. I tried to keep the information to the level of warning without getting into all the details, known or suspicioned. It seems that Scott Schaffer has not been content to leave it at that level and has even made some accusations against me and now I must go into a little more detail. A lot actually, so be prepared to read awhile if you want to know the story. This is being done from memory, because I am not home to check specific dates because actually I am down in Savannah, Georgia with my family doing some National Guard duty and I can tell you answering this is not high on my list of preferred activities at the moment…. And ALSO I hate to see airing of “dirty laundry” on a public forum, and dislike having to take up space on TT for that reason, but since statements have been made, I will post and let you see that I was behaving in a reasonable manner at all times.
Anyway, PCE, LLC paid for the first two GS ads in USAS News. Mr. Schaffer had agreed to pay for half of the ad cost by supplying me with product to sell equal to our agreed on wholesale price, so I should have got over $400 worth of retail product. (Imagine my surprise today when I read that he only sent me $180 worth of product.!!!) I did the ad creation and graphics over and above the cost of the ad insertion.
Several months go by, so sometime in December, I complain that I have not gotten any product to cover the agreed on half cost of the $600 I have spent out of pocket for ads, nor do I have any to sell if someone calls wanting to buy it (fortunately no one has yet called) . I also do not have any to evaluate to offer a first hand opinion to Anschutz about at the upcoming SHOT show at the end of January (Mr. Shaffer was desirous of having GS becoming a OEM product with Anschutz rifles). I finally receive the agreed on product about the 15th of December. No check was found nor expected as the product was to be the payment!!!!!.
Fast Forward to early February a few days after getting back from the SHOT show.
Well first, take a look at the GS website, about where Mr. Shaffer endorses Steve Moore’s gunsmithing services. http://gunsnot.com/serv01.htm
Here is an excerpt from the e-mail,( a couple of paragraphs are removed as not being related to subject at hand but I assure they in no way change the meaning of what is said, in fact, quite the opposite, but again I am trying to keep this on civil level)
“””””””. At SHOT, I learned several things, some I need to follow up on more. A guy from Raytheon came by and was telling Warren that perflouriante (SP) was not good for steel, would accelerate rust, had no anti-friction properties and would not stay in one place, that it would run everywhere and had nothing to do with Teflon. I was totally blown away. I have the guys card and am supposed to follow up with him this week.
Steve Moore was by and seemed surprised and put-out that you had a thing about him on your website, that implied endorsement of GS. He highly recommends something else, and said he would send me some to test. I am planning a doing a factory grease evaluation, one with with Steve Moores lubricant and one with Gunsnot, and proceed from there.
Anschutz did not really want to discuss GS, especially after this Raytheon guy was in the booth.”””””””””””
Mr. Shaffer replied later in the day with this shocker.
“””””””””””””””I was very disturbed with our conversation today and of course the outcome of the Shot Show. I was asked by 4 firms to take Gun Snot to the show but I gave it exclusively to you. You assured me that you had access to Anschutz to tell the Gun Snot story as no other person in the US could do because of your personal relationships with them. To hear that none of the pre-show objectives were accomplished but rather reversed in a negative way was a disaster. You could have called me from the show when the false issues with Raytheon or Steve or Matt arose, but chose not to and the opportunity with Anschutz was lost.
We agreed to use Pilkguns as a distributor to distribute the product, which your firm has failed to demonstrate a desire to do. You have yet to place it on your website as a new product and as of today you are planning a comparison to Mil-Spec TW25 for some reason that escapes me. I paid for the second USAS ad placement even though we were only to have done one and sent you free stock to get you going. I would like to request that stock back as well as any unused sales literature. We further request that you cease and desist in using the name Gun Snot™ on your website and sales promotion along with the name or image of Matt Emmons in connection with it as a distributor.
If you have any questions please feel free to contact me.
Regards
Scott
¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤
Scott Shaffer
Gun Snot, LLC
www.gunsnot.com
AOL IM frustrateddad1
"A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory" “””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
my first thought was “if you can’t stand the heat then get out of the kitchen”. My gracious, I asked some serious questions about his product and want to do a test comparison against other lubricants and now he wants to drop me! If his product will not stand up to a test against any other lubricant at the same or lower price level, then for sure it does not meet my “Quality has no regrets” motto. Also, I though the signature line was very telling to the core of Mr. Shaffer’s character. Anyway, I replied to his e-mail with this one. NOTE,, I am adding **** before and after my comments in his e-mail, it clear in the cut and paste, but not sure it will translate on TT.
**********Well Scott, if this is your response based on yesterday’s conversation, then for sure I and my firm do not wish to represent your product. It certainly smacks to me of the old saying , If you can’t take the heat, then get out of the kitchen. If you cannot answer legimitate questions about your product, then for sure I am not going to use my name and reputation to endorse it. I have a slogan that I created and I believe in both in products I purchase for myself, and products I sell in my business, and that is QUALITY HAS NO REGRETS. When a man comes up with valid industry credentials such as Raytheon and makes extremely negative comments the intents and uses about the major ingredient in your product, it is only to be expected that I would follow up to see what your side of the story was.
Other comments will be inserted as necessary below.**********
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott @ Gun Snot
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 9:20 PM
To: 'Scott Pilkington'
Cc: 'gina1'
Subject: Distribution
Dear Scott
I was very disturbed with our conversation today and of course the outcome of the Shot Show. I was asked by 4 firms to take Gun Snot to the show but I gave it exclusively to you.
*******Well I cannot vouch for the validity of this either way, but if you thought that you had a better firm to market your product to this market, then you should of chosen to do so.*******
You assured me that you had access to Anschutz to tell the Gun Snot story as no other person in the US could do because of your personal relationships with them.
********This is certainly twisting the truth. Sometime early in January you told me that you did not need me to even say anything at the SHOT show to Anschutz because Matt had it all sewed up with them. I in return said that I knew Matt had told them about the product at Athens, that I had followed up with Anschutz with my suggestions in late August, at which time I had no experience with your product. The outcome of my conversation with Anschutz at that time was that I was to try it out and evaluate it, and let them know the results of my 5 month long test at the SHOT show. I then said that Matt’s relationship to Anschutz was very good obviously because of his shooting credentials, but that I had been working with Anschutz at gunsmith level for 15 years, and as a dealer level for 6 years and was even sharing booth space with them so I thought that I had more than my fair share of creditbility with Anschutz myself AND I still did not have any product to evaluate or say I had personal experience with, so at best, we were going have 20 day evaluation period prior to the SHOT show conversation with Anschutz, not the anticipated 5 month one. Your failure to get me product over a 4 month period had far more to do with SHOT show outcome than anything I did or could have done, **********
To hear that none of the pre-show objectives were accomplished but rather reversed in a negative way was a disaster.
********I am not sure what pre-show objectives were planned that did not get met other than my photo essay that I planned to make for my website on how to use the material. This could not have had effect on SHOT show results in any way*********
You could have called me from the show when the false issues with Raytheon or Steve or Matt arose, but chose not to and the opportunity with Anschutz was lost.
*******I really thought it strange that you wanted to make this connection with Anschutz, yet, were not willing to take time to come and talk to them personally. My time at such an event is valuable, the SHOT show is a busy place, and I did not see that any of the issues mentioned above warranted a phone call to you during that period. Whether any of the three issues above are false or not, I don’t know, and apparently based on this e-mail I will never know for sure, but based on your reaction, I can only draw one conclusion.*****
We agreed to use Pilkguns as a distributor to distribute the product, which your firm has failed to demonstrate a desire to do.
*****I spent over $600 in advertising your product , plus ad creation time, without any compensation from you and only finally received the agreed on product for your half of the ads after my complaints to you about lack of payment, and running short of time to evaluate the product for the Anschutz discussion. A conversation BTW, which would have netted me nothing in return, since all your sales to them would have been direct without need of a retailer like myself. *******
You have yet to place it on your website as a new product and as of today you are planning a comparison to Mil-Spec TW25 for some reason that escapes me.
*******Because someone whom you apprarently put great stock in, Steve Moore, as endorsed on your website, who does not recommend Gunsnot or feel it’s the best product on the market, DOES recommend and endorse TW-25. I thought a 3-way test, the factory lubricant , Gunsot and TW-25 would make a fair comparison, but your fear of my doing this test is certainly indicative of product’s abilities.********
I paid for the second USAS ad placement
******I am unaware of you paying for any ad to USAS, as we were invoiced and paid for the first two long before I got any payment from you. If you have paid Sara directly for an ad, then you need to clear this up with her, but its strange that it has not been mentioned before now. Even more so you have illustrated what kind of person you are by your conversation yesterday about the 3rd ad invoice that I received yesterday, something to the effect about “you did’nt authorize the third ad and I did’nt authorize this ad, so they will just have to eat the payment”, Screw USAS in essence. That is a poor way to do business when apparently you were the one who did not cancel or contact Sara as you told me you were going to do.*****
even though we were only to have done one
******this is a lie, as you were involved in the discussion for the second one, since we had to blur the medal images to satisfy USOC, and you even sent e-mails to Bob Mitchell pointing out other advertisemtents that were using the Athens medals.*****
and sent you free stock to get you going.
******You sent me stock to PAY for my agreed on share of the ads, only I after I complained of lack of payment and product in a e-mail dated Dec 12th, and even then it took several weeks to get the product here.******
I would like to request that stock back as well as any unused sales literature.
******Upon receipt of a check for your half of the ads, I would be glad to return the product. Make it $305 to cover return shipping*******
We further request that you cease and desist in using the name Gun Snot™ on your website and sales promotion along with the name or image of Matt Emmons in connection with it as a distributor.
*****This should is not a problem since as you have complained about above, we’re are not promoting it******
If you have any questions please feel free to contact me.
******No, I think you have answered any questions I might have had about you or your product.
Scott Pilkington****
Now, the really WEIRD thing happens. I receive a FAX of an E-Mail from Scott Shaffer. A fax on my fax machine, but I never, till this day, have received this e-mail by via e-mail. VERY STRANGE. My response to this faxed e-mail was e-mailed back to Mr. Shaffer, and you can read next. This is e-mail was sent to Scott Shaffer, his wife. Gina, my wife Rhonda, and my partner Warren. I also CC’ed Matt Emmons. At no point did I ever BCC anyone, although at this point everyone can see the paranoia being expressed, and the reason for wishing to distance myself from
“””””””””””All, (with my apologies to Matt for having to be drug into all this)
I received a fax just now from Scott Shaffer of an e-mail titled Check 1310 that shows to have been sent to me at 11.14 AM, yet at this moment 12.04 PM I have not received this e-mail in my inbox.
The e-mail states:
You were sent Dec 13th Check number 1310 the amount of $300 = the free stock. You cashed the check Dec 18th
End of e-mail
Rhonda has just checked our records and we have no knowledge or record of such a check being used or cashed. Scott and
Gina, If you have evidence otherwise of this or any other check being cashed through us, I sure want to know about it.
Scott Pilkington””””””””””””””””
I did not get an immediate response to this…. About a week later on FEB 15, I sent a follow-up e-mail with this question “””””””””””What are your plans regarding the merchandise? Are you sending a check to cover the ad so that I can return it to you or shall I special it off? What happened about this alleged check and deposit? If such a check was processed through here, I want to know about it, when and what bank processed it?. “””””””””””
I received this reply from Mr. Shaffer later in the same day
“”””””””The check was in the package of supplies that I sent and it was check 1310 for $300. I remembered seeing it being cleared on the 18th, but all my year-end stuff is at the accountant so getting my hands on it right now is impossible without causing a mess with them. It was not a fictitious event and not said in malice, and spreading such a note around the countryside to dis-interested parties, putting the words of ‘screw USAS” into my mouth was not appreciated as it went to the core of my character and is contrary to my dealings with USAS at all levels. It was sent with the supplies. If you all did not in fact cash it, and I suggest that you do, then so be it. I am moving on.”””””””””””””
Very interesting that Mr. Shaffer changes his story about the check within just a few sentences. Therefore, IT INFURIATES ME THAT HE WOULD MAKE THIS PUBLIC ACCUSATIONS about said check!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sooooooooooooo, that’s it besides a bunch of research I tried to do about PTFE, perflorinated and Teflon (not necessarily all the same as I now understand, but I am for sure not a chemical engineer) and trying to research some of the credentials of both of these “industry professionals. My decision not to continue to sell this product based as much on the reactions of Mr. Shaffer to some honest questions, as well as my research about his product AFTER the fact, when I did not get the answers from him.
And if anyone desires to see the originals of these e-mails, you are welcome to contact me. Oh and one more thing, the name thing, I never really liked it either, but as God is my witness, I never made the gross connection of “GS, the one champions pick” in the ad till someone pointed it out to me at the SHOW show. Must of have been left over from the anesthesia. I can't believe I missed that.....