TargetTalk

I would like a brief summary on how to shoot a 10 m. rapid fire match.

Thanks!

Stan Pace wrote:I believe there was some AP RF shot on turning targets (the target mechanism is available), but that course of fire doesn't seem to exist.

I think you are probably thinking about the ISSF "Provisional Special Technical Rules for the 10m Air Pistol Rapid Event and 10m Air Pistol Standard Event" which were effective from 01/01/1997.

They were dropped with the introduction of the "Rule 8.20" events effective from 01/01/2001.

There are several "home grown" events araound but none are sanctioned by the ISSF. At The British Pistol Club we use the following:-

60 competition shots fired in two half courses with each half course as follows:-
1 sighting series in 10 seconds
2 series in 10 seconds
2 series in 8 seconds
2 series in 6 seconds.
Targets Air 10 (as per the old Provisional rules) or French/Finnish targets (similar but with a larger black), at shooters option and subject availability.
Sighting targets to be kept separate but all 30 scoring shots of a single half course can be shot on one set of 5 targets but shots should be recorded after each 10 shots.

Malfunctions
Only one (1) ALLOWABLE MALFUNCTION will be accepted.

When controlled by a range officer you will be given one minute to load. When one minute has expired the range officer will give the commands
ATTENTION (Targets are turned away)3 - 2 - 1 START (Timer box start button pressed) Targets will appear in 3 seconds.

Stan Pace wrote:It seems strange that the ISSF went away from a RF event for AP that was virtually the same as the 22 short event.

Rumour has it that people were worried the IOC would look at the cheap infrastructure required for the AP event and drop the expensive 25m option. It would have taken Sport Pistol (as it was then known) with it.

With the new 22LR rules for Rapid Fire the ISSF hope to be able to demonstrate a much wider worldwide participation and therefore preserve the 25m events in the Olympics. I hope their plan works.

David Levene wrote:
There are several "home grown" events araound but none are sanctioned by the ISSF. At The British Pistol Club we use the following:-

60 competition shots fired in two half courses with each half course as follows:-
1 sighting series in 10 seconds
2 series in 10 seconds
2 series in 8 seconds
2 series in 6 seconds.
Targets Air 10 (as per the old Provisional rules) or French/Finnish targets (similar but with a larger black), at shooters option and subject availability.
Sighting targets to be kept separate but all 30 scoring shots of a single half course can be shot on one set of 5 targets but shots should be recorded after each 10 shots.

We use the same in Sweden, but 60 shots as per RFP-procedure.

Actually, I think the falling plate approach was a better idea all the way around. Classical RF takes a relatively long time to score, while the falling plate system makes scoring very quick. More audience appeal, too.

Mike McDaniel wrote:More audience appeal, too.

Much more. Score 5 hits in a series on the falling targets and, even in reasonably small event, you are immediately greeted with cheers and applause. This obviously draws in more spectators. They can see what is happening as soon as a shot is fired.

With the traditionally scored targets it is only the well-informed who appreciate a 50 being shot despite it being more difficult than 5 hits on the fallers.

It is a great shame that the ISSF didn't take the opportunity in the 2005 rules of specifying how much umph (UK technical term) is needed to make the target fall. It would be interesting to hear what force people are using. I would presume that, provided it was applied slowly, a measurement of the weight applied to the centre of the target to make it fall would be a fair comparison. A Correx type gauge would be ideal for testing. Any thoughts anyone.

That's american gutter slang for "umph".

You might look at the International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association rules.

The targets not round, but they have established parameters for energy required to topple them and for target construction. Both single falling targets and resettable targets (banks of 5) are used.

www.IHMSA.org.

Also, If anyone lives and the central Ohio area, we are having an air pistol silhuoette match at the Canton McKinley range on Saturday commencing at 0930 hrs. I think it is 4.00 to shoot a round, which is 40 targets. You can shoot multiple rounds.

It is a fun way to shoot, like an old fashion shooting gallery.

Thanks All, and good luck,
Ed

Mike McDaniel wrote:Actually, I think the falling plate approach was a better idea all the way around. Classical RF takes a relatively long time to score, while the falling plate system makes scoring very quick. More audience appeal, too.

From a perspective of spectators and intrest from media a fully agree. It is probably a good way to make shooting TV-friendly by using self marking targets.

From the shooters perspective that RAP is training for RF (which is important in could contries like Sweden, it is not feasible to train outdoors 5-6 month per year due to cold climate) it is better to use paper targets in order be able to analyse grouping and so on.

Mike McDaniel wrote:Actually, I think the falling plate approach was a better idea all the way around. Classical RF takes a relatively long time to score, while the falling plate system makes scoring very quick. More audience appeal, too.

From a perspective of spectators and interest from media I fully agree. It is probably a good way to make shooting TV-friendly by using self marking targets.

From the shooters perspective that RAP is training for RF (which is important in cold contries like Sweden, it is not feasible to train outdoors 5-6 month per year due to cold climate) it is better to use paper targets in order be able to analyse grouping and so on.

For those in the DFW area, Haltom City Rifle and Pistol Club has indoor air pistol silhouette matches every Tuesday evening with practice starting at 6:30. It is NRA and IHMSA approved and we have many current and past national champions as well as Mike Stimson the President of IHMSA shooting. The knowledge and competition at our club is great and everyone is willing to help with whatever you need. We always have plenty of extra guns too if you cant bring yours or dont have one.

I am the match director, Tom Foster, and you can contact me via email at shootingsports@ev1.net or if you like just come to the club at 2100 Minnis Dr Haltom City, TX 76117-5369 after 6:00 on any Tuesday night.

We also have indoor 10m AP and AR every Thursday night at 6:30.

The matches are $6.00 each and are open to anyone that wants to shoot.

If there is interest in rapid fire shooting at biathlon style targets, I will look into buying a set. They can be had for about $120 at a couple of places.

TomF wrote:If there is interest in rapid fire shooting at biathlon style targets, I will look into buying a set. They can be had for about $120 at a couple of places.

Is that price for ISSF style targets? It seems amazingly cheap.

I dont know. What are the ISSF target specs?

Neal Johnson has a Biathlon falling plate target set.

And so does Devlin Mfg.: http://www.devinmfg.com/targets1.html

TomF wrote:I dont know. What are the ISSF target specs?

Neal Johnson has a Biathlon falling plate target set.

And so does Devlin Mfg.: http://www.devinmfg.com/targets1.html

Those are nothing like the ISSF rule 8.20.9.1 targets in the 5 Shot Air Pistol Rules I'm afraid.

David
What is it that you don't think fits the rules? It's pretty much like I evision it. The holes are too big, and the spacing could be off, can't tell by the photo.
Pilkington also sells the Rika unit, http://www.pilkguns.com/rikalp5.htm

R.M.

The Devin site is talking about 35mm targets. At a rough estimate from the picture I would guess at 50mm between the holes. That gives a centre to centre of 85 mm. That gives a centre to centre between targets 1 and 5 of 340mm.

The ISSF rules call for a 59.5mm diameter black with a 30mm hole and a centre to centre of 300mm. That gives a centre to centre between targets 1 and 5 of 1200mm.

From the above you will see that the total movement from targets 1 to 5 on the Devin target is only 40mm greater than the ISSF movement from one target to the next.

The Rika targets on the Pilkguns link you give are available with the correct size inserts for ISSF use. They already have the correct 300mm spacing. You won't buy them for anything like $120 though. I believe that Rika also make a non-ISSF set of targets similar to the Devin ones.

David Levene wrote:
It is a great shame that the ISSF didn't take the opportunity in the 2005 rules of specifying how much umph (UK technical term) is needed to make the target fall. It would be interesting to hear what force people are using. I would presume that, provided it was applied slowly, a measurement of the weight applied to the centre of the target to make it fall would be a fair comparison. A Correx type gauge would be ideal for testing. Any thoughts anyone.

Don't know that 'umph' is intended as a factor - Surely hitting the plate is the important bit. The plates are to register a hit, without 'power factor' being considered.

No doubt people will run into AP settings that will not make a plate fall (will the solution be to make the plate settings softer?)

I too have been looking at making up a set of targets to get some interest going in this match. My mind is pondering an electronic sensing for each plate with an indicator light for each plate to signify a hit; simpler than setting up (and maintaining) plate stops/reset.

S

Spencer C wrote:I too have been looking at making up a set of targets to get some interest going in this match. My mind is pondering an electronic sensing for each plate with an indicator light for each plate to signify a hit; simpler than setting up (and maintaining) plate stops/reset.

I have tried both the flag type and light type targets. IMHO the flag type are infinitely more exciting, both as a shooter and a spectator. With the light type the targets looks the same whether hit or not. With the flag type a hit is much more obvious as the target itself changes colour/disappears.

I agree that a direct hit on the plate should drop the target, but what about a ricochet from the edge of the hole. Hence my "umph" question.

David Levene wrote:

I agree that a direct hit on the plate should drop the target, but what about a ricochet from the edge of the hole. Hence my "umph" question.

maybe that is why the plate is so much bigger than the hole?

S

Anonymous wrote:

David Levene wrote:

I agree that a direct hit on the plate should drop the target, but what about a ricochet from the edge of the hole. Hence my "umph" question.

maybe that is why the plate is so much bigger than the hole?

But should a ricochet be classed as a hit. I am not arguing one way or the other but it would influence the target system design. This should have been clarified by the ISSF.