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Marc Orvin's gonna go ballistic .... Marc, you out there!?

jhmartin wrote:Marc Orvin's gonna go ballistic .... Marc, you out there!?

He probably knew about the changes before they were announced.

randy1952 wrote:

jhmartin wrote:Have you looked at the other topic for the rules?
Look at the "Coaching" section.

They must have come up with some of these after they started hitting the hard stuff at their meetings.

Yes, I read that and so why not just get rid of the coaching rule all together. I can come up with hand signals just like baseball.

When they realise that electronics have been miniturised they will then probably ban earplugs!

They have also down right lied. they say they consulted manufacturers, I have contact at one major one, and they say categorically they were not, and they have contacted the other major ones, who also say they were not consulted! No good complaining to the ISSF tech chairman or the ISSF Athletes rep, I did, they did not reply. Any contact on this to the ISSF is replied to by Gary Anderson, and copied to Willi Grills, who are probably the ones behind this!

I wish I had the money to take this to law, and I agree with you Randy its sad, they are slowly destroying our sport.


PS. Just had an email from "my manufacturer" they say their "Industry Association of Weapon Manufacturers" representing all manufacturers are protesting this rule.
I bet they don't get a reply either other than from GA!

RobinC wrote:

randy1952 wrote:

jhmartin wrote:Have you looked at the other topic for the rules?
Look at the "Coaching" section.

They must have come up with some of these after they started hitting the hard stuff at their meetings.

Yes, I read that and so why not just get rid of the coaching rule all together. I can come up with hand signals just like baseball.

When they realise that electronics have been miniturised they will then probably ban earplugs!

They have also down right lied. they say they consulted manufacturers, I have contact at one major one, and they say categorically they were not, and they have contacted the other major ones, who also say they were not consulted! No good complaining to the ISSF tech chairman or the ISSF Athletes rep, I did, they did not reply. Any contact on this to the ISSF is replied to by Gary Anderson, and copied to Willi Grills, who are probably the ones behind this!

I wish I had the money to take this to law, and I agree with you Randy its sad, they are slowly destroying our sport.


PS. Just had an email from "my manufacturer" they say their "Industry Association of Weapon Manufacturers" representing all manufacturers are protesting this rule.
I bet they don't get a reply either other than from GA!

I honestly think they are similar the people who have been in our congress to long. I tried talking to Gary and he is so out of touch with the grassroots levels that the decisions he is help making and pushing are having long term negative effects. The other factor is like our politicians in Washington who have delusions of grandeur will eventually make the organization irrelevant. Unfortunately, the affects are slow enough and considering the age of the current committee members they won't see the destruction.

It all goes back to punishing all for the sins of a few.

If a rifle is resting on the chest ...
1) Note it to the athlete
If the rifle is still resting on the chest ...
2) Yellow Card
If the rifle is still resting on the chest ...
3) Green card & -2pts
If the rifle is still resting on the chest ...
4) Red Card ... you're outta here

Seems simple to me.
After 1 or 2 folks will start changing their positions or rifle or gear.

jhmartin wrote:Marc Orvin's gonna go ballistic .... Marc, you out there!?

Yes, I'm here.

I'm all for the new rule on coaching. I hated the old rule. Under the old rule, a competitor could potentially be penalized points due to the actions of his coach and through no fault of his own. I love the new rule. I will no longer have the situation where I see a competitor turn around, causing me to turn around to see who is coaching him. I can now focus my attention forward, where it is supposed to be focused. Can't wait for the rule to be implemented.

From what I am hearing, the JO State championships will be conducted under the old rules. Still not sure about WAG. Would be nice if they would implement the new rules for WAG, but I can understand the implications. Folks would legitimately state "show me the rule," which would show an implementation date of next year.

So - Yes I am here, and Yes I am pleased with the coaching rule change. Some of the others, not so much.

jhmartin wrote:It all goes back to punishing all for the sins of a few.

If a rifle is resting on the chest ...
1) Note it to the athlete
If the rifle is still resting on the chest ...
2) Yellow Card
If the rifle is still resting on the chest ...
3) Green card & -2pts
If the rifle is still resting on the chest ...
4) Red Card ... you're outta here

Seems simple to me.
After 1 or 2 folks will start changing their positions or rifle or gear.

I'd love to hear from high level officials as to how easy that is to enforce without getting complaints from the athletes for either being over zealous, making bad calls, or not enforcing it enough on others.

It is very easy to enforce. Just as posted - 1,2,3,4. Also, just for the record, step one is not required. It can start with step 2. I try in every instance to talk to the athlete first, just to make sure they know I'm watching and to make sure they know the consequences of ignoring the verbal warning.

Yes, you get complaints from the athletes. And the coaches who should have had this issue resolved prior to showing up at the match. Everyone has access to the rulebook now on their mobile device. Still it is the official who is the bad guy for enforcing it.

We try to make sure we are looking at this issue during the training days, or prior to prep and sighters, to get it handled before the match. There are some who try to play coy on match day and don't suit up all the way until the very last minute prior to prep and sighters. They think we will not approach them during that prep and sighter time, or during the match. They are wrong. Then they are really upset that you have pointed out their problem and now they have limited time to fix it.

Coaching. The 2013 Rules permitted non-verbal coaching in Shotgun. The new Rules permit non-verbal coaching in all events.

Am I the only one who see's how this is going to go? Verbal means one may not issue a spoken command that could be construed as a coaching instruction? Yes or No?
So what will stop coaches from bringing a whistle into the range. They are encouraging spectator noise. A whistle or some sound to get your shooters attention. And a 24" tablet, or chalk board, or a series of different whistles or tones that mean stop and look at me, check the wind, go. With music, crowd noise, and all the commotion going on the background, they should just change the rule and allow coaches to actively coach! If the desire is to make the sport more viewer friendly then put a mic on the coach and let the world hear how it's done! Great shooters with a great real time coach could become a winning combination that would alter the landscape of the firing line. We do it in team events.

Marc .... you know me .... I'll always do step 1 unless I KNOW that another RO has approached them.
Especially the juniors which I'm more involved with more than the "high rollers" matches. <grin>

I'm also in the same agreement with Mike ... the non-verbal is going to get out of hand ... very little thought of the repercussions and the activities that will be induced & used. If they are going to allow non-verbal coaching, then they should also allow electronic communication ... I think the electronic would be much less aggravating ... using a text message w/ no buzzing and ringing would accomplish the task with far less disruption.

Even a "Viber" type app, where the coach could send a (silent) video conference.

jhmartin wrote:Marc .... you know me .... I'll always do step 1 unless I KNOW that another RO has approached them.
Especially the juniors which I'm more involved with more than the "high rollers" matches. <grin>

I'm also in the same agreement with Mike ... the non-verbal is going to get out of hand ... very little thought of the repercussions and the activities that will be induced & used. If they are going to allow non-verbal coaching, then they should also allow electronic communication ... I think the electronic would be much less aggravating ... using a text message w/ no buzzing and ringing would accomplish the task with far less disruption.

Even a "Viber" type app, where the coach could send a (silent) video conference.

Here we go again...No electronic devices allowed, phones, smart watches etc. I doubt any change will be made on this for a couple of years at best.

As far as coaching anyway. Shooting is STILL an individual event just like running, pole vault,LD running, cycling etc. Coaching is allowed until the competitor is actually competing. I say leave the shooter alone while shooting and let their SKILL shine. Besides, the top 50 in the word should not gain points from coaching in competition anyway..they dont need it. And those under the top 50 are not gonna crack the top 50 with their current skills. They need to practice with coaching more, shoot more live competition with no coaching while shooting so they can apply what they learned when practicing.

Am I so wrong in thinking this way?

At a World Cup some years back for 50m Prone, a RO informed me that a coach (in the spectator area) was coughing occassioanally
... anybody can have a tickle in the throat
and his shooter fired a shot within a very short time after each cough
...coincidnce?
and the coughs consistently coincided with a drop in the crosswind
...coincidence??
I 'suggested' to the RO (who was a very experienced 50m rifle shooter) that he cough at the worst crosswind conditions
... the shooter fired
...coincidence???
the shooter looked around at the coach, who made some interesting body-language movements
...the coach's ticklish throat (and the 'problem') went away.

There is more than one way of skinning a cat.

All that is legal now. It is no longer (necessarily) an individual sport.
You can have a Sights coach
You can have a Position coach
You can have a Wind coach
You can have a Tactics coach
etc.
All feeding you "non-verbal" cues
Gonna get crowded behind the line ...

ver·bal
ˈvərbəl/
adjective: verbal
1.
relating to or in the form of words.

You are all over reacting over this...

Coaches always tried to send some non verbal instruction to the shooter when he/she turned around.
That could result in a warning, a points deduction or a disqualification for the shooter.
Now that limitation is gone.

You will have coaches waiving their arms like crazy behind the firing points but that's all...
Everything else will be dealt with a bit of that rare spice called common sense... Give the judges a bit of credit... Some do know what they are doing... (like the example Spencer wrote)

rmca wrote:You are all over reacting over this
...........

You will have coaches waiving their arms like crazy behind the firing points but that's all...

I know we are, but to make a point. forgot to put the "cynical" tags around the comments.
[cynical]
I'm sure the coaches waving their arms like crazy will go over just super on TV
[/cynical]

jhmartin wrote: I'm sure the coaches waving their arms like crazy will go over just super on TV
[/cynical]

I would put money on that bet!!! And will probably raise the audience levels to a full three digits!!! ;)

SNICKER!

jhmartin wrote:[cynical]
I'm sure the coaches waving their arms like crazy will go over just super on TV
[/cynical]

Just like it does when they show the shotgun events, where non-verbal coaching is already allowed.

Oh, wait a minute, I can't remember seeing much in the way of arm waving.

Well ..... As Marc said, this is one less thing for the ROs to worry about.
When a shooter turns around to look at the coach/whoever, we can ignore it, and keep our focus in the correct direction.

We all know that overcoaching is going to hurt score, so there wont be much. Younger jrs may benifit, and arguably the no coaching slows their development.

I wish they made it simple and just said coaching is allowed. Now we will have rules and rule interpretations on what nonverbal is and how big a sign you can hold and who knows what. If the fans are encouraged to yell what difference it make if coach yells?