TargetTalk

Did you ever consider that there is a genetic transfer biased towards what is needed to attain such elite status as yourself and your father have achieved ?

"The neuroscience area - which is absolutely in its infancy - is much more important than genetics."
Leon Kass

deadeyedick wrote:Did you ever consider that there is a genetic transfer biased towards what is needed to attain such elite status as yourself and your father have achieved ?

Who knows It is possible. I tend to think that influence has a bigger role tho. I definitely haven't achieved elite status tho. Id put me at the level of a good club shooter and thats about it. I hope to change that tho

So Dick once again I will ask what are these genetic traits that identify these genetically gifted people?

Richard H wrote:So Dick once again I will ask what are these genetic traits that identify these genetically gifted people?

I do agree that some people had a lot more natural ability than others. I have no idea if that is important tho. When I went to basic training in the army I got beat by some1 who had never shot before. I'm still spewing about it. Then this year I met him again while shooting champion shot of the army and he finished outside the top 30

I've asked Dick a question, what I really want is Dick's answer. But thanks anyways.

Hello Richard, all of us know, and see differences in others around us. These differences often lend people to be more suited to various endeavours such as music, maths, crosswords ( even pistol shooting ) etc. If we look deeper, there is usually someone closely linked genetically to that person that was endowed with a similar qualities.
As muffo has described his and his fathers equally successful careers in pistol shooting, I am of the belief that the total of this success was not completely due to disciplined training, but to a natural set of abilities that allowed such requirements as a steadier hold, a more manageable insulin release, as well as the ability for the positive inner voice keeping check of the negative one in those moments of finals pressure , along with the endless hours of training and Coaching. My belief is that these attributes have been genetically passed from father to son, making it easier for the son to emulate the fathers level, than say another member of their Club. People lacking the natural ability struggle valiantly, and in many cases overcome personal hurdles to reach their potential... but all of us have seen how Champions always seem to have the edge....psychological, that controls the physical, over others. Given the same training regime, there will always be someone who rises above others......why did they not all achieve the same level ?
Simply put, one had a psychological/physical/genetically handed down set of qualitities that will provide better results when approaching the pointy end of competition, given the same training/coaching.
Some people can never master tests of control, and will only improve on them with practice. Some of us are genetically programmed to find certain tasks easier, and a denial of this natural occurrence is akin to being unaware of natures marvels.
How does one identify these qualities? ....Go ask a National Pistol Coach what he/she is looking for....or speak to the talent identifying Committees around the world, that are endlessly searching for these people with "special qualities" to foster. Or perhaps they have it wrong, and anyone with enough training, desire, and support can reach the highest levels of a given sport.
Almost all people that achieve the pinnacle of any endeavour have qualities that have been genetically passed down to them that will help them realise their final achievement level in a given arena. It is an advantage that all Champions have had in the past, and will continue to benefit from in the future. These physical/psychological advantages, coupled with coaching, training and time are what produce Champions.
If after reading these words Richard, you still cannot understand what has been said, then let's just " agree to disagree ".

By the way Richard, as a Moderator of this forum on which open discussion is encouraged, I find your comment. " a crock of crap " to be unprofessional at the very least, and possibly in need of a re think.

It is a very touching story Mr. Deadeyedick. The problem is this story is based on your beliefs as you have mentioned before. Yes, it is true that the conventional system is looking for individuals with outstanding natural abilities. What makes this sport interesting is that mature individuals with a proper set of knowledge and good health can equally match the performance of what you are describing as talent or genetic pre condition. I recently received targets from my student who passed my class two months ago. With a few clicks of sight alignment, his strings can be counted as 98 and 99.
Before my class, he spent three years using a traditional approach and advice from members of this forum and bouncing in score performance around 530 in air pistol.
New knowlegdge can open new horizons for any motivated individual besides having pre genetic condtions. What you are sharing are your beliefs and I'm glad not many agree with you. Good luck.

Here are the targets of this student: http://midwestacademyconsulting.wordpre ... -practice/

Well...here goes,.... my last try.

Question:

Why do stud fees for CHAMPION race horses command such high prices ?

Answer:

In the hope of passing on GENES to the offspring that will enable the performances and qualities of the parents to be repeated .

Difficult isn't it ?

It would take" blind freddy " to not see that posessing the " right stuff " gives a better chance of excellence, as opposed to another who is not so genetically gifted in whichever way their particular sport or dicipline requires.
This does not remove the need for coaching, training. However, the outcome is more likely to favour the one who's natural qualities predispose them to attaining a higher, more consistent performance.

When people mention shooters undergoing coaching and transforming their performance, who's to say that they are not the ones with the "right stuff ", and have started showing their potential through experienced direction. But to imagine that everyone is capable of the highest level of achievement is naive and fanciful.
These "opinions" of mine are the result of observations made during 37 years of pistol shooting ( 15 as a coach ), and having observed people as a health professional for over 40 years. In the medical and scientific world this concept would not receive such attention.

Does that mean that the top shooters " can demand high stud fees " ?

David M wrote:Does that mean that the top shooters " can demand high stud fees " ?

OOOHHHWWWAAHH!
Wait 'til I tell Cheryl - you WILL be in trouble!
You might have talked yourself out of an all expenses trip to NZ.

I would think there is less money in stud service for a great shooter as there is in the actual shooting.

[quote="deadeyedick"]Well...here goes,.... my last try.

Question:

Why do stud fees for CHAMPION race horses command such high prices ?

Because many people don't stop to think that it was the champion's PARENTS that actually had what they're seeking in a new horse!

Surely you realize that the top shooters have their "groupies."

David M wrote:Does that mean that the top shooters " can demand high stud fees " ?

LOL, that was worth the price of reading this entire thread :-p

So are you still competing? Are you still travelling? Maybe I'll try to make it to the Munich WC next year.

-trinity

I do think the OP has some valid points. I am not sure how other countries do talent identification, but I had the opportunity to visit one Chinese provincial system and see how did talent identification.

For example, for male rapid fire shooters, they would look for kids with short arms, because that allows for a faster raise (less torque required since the pistol would be held closer to the body). For rifle shooters, they are looking for kids with longer arms so they can rest their elbow on their hips easily. Also, for pistol shooters, they do the palms up holding a sheet of paper steadiness test. And then they also do the stack 22 brass test. Of course, pretty much overall they are looking for shorter kids. Too much height isn't a great benefit to shooters.

Now, all those tests were done on kids who are like 12 years old. This would be done before they would be selected for their local school.

They would select the quieter personalities over the overtly rambunctious type. But I am not sure if they did any additional psychological profiling at that age, since that would probably take more time and energy. And their overall philosophy seemed to be "throw them in, and weed them out, there are always other kids to take their place".

Now, those may have been some basic identification criteria, but they are by no means definitive. I mean, just because you don't have those criteria doesn't mean you can't achieve greatness.

Whether it is easier for someone with those genetic gifts to achieve greatness vs an "average Joe" is certainly difficult to prove one way or the other. Personally I believe hard work trumps genetic talent. A friend told me recently that one of the smartest people they ever met doesn't have a penny to his name because he simply lacked the interest or the desire for hard work. So there is genetics for you!

-trinity

Selection based on physical attributes says Usain Bolt should not be a 100m or 200m sprinter but a 400m runner.

Olympics 2020 is really achievable goal in my opinion. I myself started serious practice 3 months ago(with 6 months extreme motivation prior to that) and worked my way up to 550(560 on a good day). I am for some reason very positive that I will make to Rio. The only thing between me and Rio is one hell of training and practice.

My suggestions, just one. Discipline.

All the best

For me being a triple citizen means that even though I probably can only achieve a score lower than the minimum required, I possibly can represent the country that has the weakest standard. In my case, that country constantly only has the same one athlete attending the Olympics, and he is in some but also not in some. Chances are he probably did not bother to go during the years in which there is no athlete on that discipline.
Each country is allowed one athlete to enter in regardless of minimum requirement scores. So if that gentleman will not bother to show up at 2020, then perhaps someone that is so incompetent like me can take the empty slot. Notice the country has extremely strict gun control, including a 14 years jail sentence for civilian just to be found owning a firearm without license (difficult to get), or carry it outside of the club.
This is the same reason why we see non Skiing countries sent skiing athlete to the Winter Olympics and it is painful to watch how slow they are, virtually at the beginners level. However, I think it is great because that actually is the Olympic spirit. If only best of the best are allowed, then potentially a minimum standard will be set so high that each sport probably only have half a dozen countries competing.
Thankfully if I can enter the Olympics, I can beat the scores of the last guy in the 1912 Olympics. (Heinrich Hoffmann GER 189), so I won't be in the record book as the wooden spoon holder.
Remember Eddie the Eagle?