Richard,
it's all on you now. You can keep it up, but you will have argue with someone other than me.
A guide to reverse engineer your shot
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must see t.v. WARNING HUMOR!!!
..
Last edited by RMinUT on Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Steve Swartz as Guest
A long time ago an AMU coach explained hte WoM this way:
"A while back the Army needed a quick reference guide to assist coaches who had no training or experience in the sport. The guide was to be a quick and dirty surrogate for actual knowledge and expertise. The untrained coach could look at a target, surreptitiously examine the WoM, and issue some advice on how to correct the "most likely error" that caused the target."
The shooter him/herself was never supposed to even be aware of the WoM existence.
True story?
Who knows.
But it would explain a lot . . .
Steve
"A while back the Army needed a quick reference guide to assist coaches who had no training or experience in the sport. The guide was to be a quick and dirty surrogate for actual knowledge and expertise. The untrained coach could look at a target, surreptitiously examine the WoM, and issue some advice on how to correct the "most likely error" that caused the target."
The shooter him/herself was never supposed to even be aware of the WoM existence.
True story?
Who knows.
But it would explain a lot . . .
Steve
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Steve Swartz as Guest
Oh and more importantly, the AMU coach using hte WoM was never supposed to say "Your problem is "thumbing." Stop "thumbing!"
Instead, the coach was supposed to say "Try to concentrate on maintaining even, consistent grip pressure through the shot."
Thereby making theis entire thread one huge misunderstanding based on a misinterpretation of what the WoM is supposed to be used for and how it is supporsed to be used . . .
Assuming, of course, my premise/what I remember about the origins of the WoM are true in the first place.
If not, I think it's a better use of the WoM in any case.
Perhaps someone should take the WoM and rewrite all of the "diagnoses" into "technique solutions" instead.
Take the "negative reinforcfement" aspect of the WoM and turn it into a useful "positive reinforcement" tool . . .
I would do just that; however, I am not at the moment either shooting or coaching anymore.
Steve Swartz as Guest
Instead, the coach was supposed to say "Try to concentrate on maintaining even, consistent grip pressure through the shot."
Thereby making theis entire thread one huge misunderstanding based on a misinterpretation of what the WoM is supposed to be used for and how it is supporsed to be used . . .
Assuming, of course, my premise/what I remember about the origins of the WoM are true in the first place.
If not, I think it's a better use of the WoM in any case.
Perhaps someone should take the WoM and rewrite all of the "diagnoses" into "technique solutions" instead.
Take the "negative reinforcfement" aspect of the WoM and turn it into a useful "positive reinforcement" tool . . .
I would do just that; however, I am not at the moment either shooting or coaching anymore.
Steve Swartz as Guest
Everybody should go read this
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter4.htm
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter4.htm
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2650 Plus
Post Subject
Wow Jack you have provided som great information to this forum. I am willing to stick my neck out and guarentee that any shooter that follows this system will immediately break 2600 and is well on the way toward 2650. Good Shooting Bill Horton
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2650 Plus
Post Subject
Having been assigned th the USAMU just after the bon fire that consumed all remaining" circul of excusses " I fully agree with Steve.
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2650 Plus
Post Subject
Having been assigned th the USAMU just after the bon fire that consumed all remaining" circul of excusses " I fully agree with Steve.
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Steve Swartz as Guest
Another sign of the apocalypse . . . Bill Horton and Steve Swartz in agreement!
The USAMU is a fantastic organization with a rich history, track record of phenomenal success, and definitely invests the time and effort into separating "what works" from the "pixie dust."
That being said . . . .
. . . the danger is *NOT* in following the AMU guidelines but in following various misinterpretations (second hand interpretations) about what the "AMU system" recommends.
I strongly suggest you attend an AMU training camp (generally they conduct at least one or two a year) and get the wisdom STRAIGHT FROM THE SOURCE!
Steve Swartz as Guest
The USAMU is a fantastic organization with a rich history, track record of phenomenal success, and definitely invests the time and effort into separating "what works" from the "pixie dust."
That being said . . . .
. . . the danger is *NOT* in following the AMU guidelines but in following various misinterpretations (second hand interpretations) about what the "AMU system" recommends.
I strongly suggest you attend an AMU training camp (generally they conduct at least one or two a year) and get the wisdom STRAIGHT FROM THE SOURCE!
Steve Swartz as Guest
Wow,
After reading through the chat and the subsequent dribble that followed I am dumbfounded. Not much change from my usual state I know but I will weigh in never the less.
The chart to me lack 1 very important error that crops up for many (especially novice shooter) and it very difficult to quantify in terms of the effect on your shot placement (so every chart like this leaves it out.) The error I refer to is watching the target instead of your sight picture.
Personally I think these charts are as useful and a map to atlantis. There's so many ways to get there, but when you do get there your underwater anyway.
The best way for ANYONE to improve their shooting is to focus on the basic principals of stance, grip, hold, sights, trigger and follow through.
Things like error charts (whilst they can be helpful in very specific situations) can be dangerous especially to new shooters because they give you too much information and one can begin to worry about errors they have never even thought of. Knowledge is power but too much is corrupting (same as power.)
That's my 2 cents anyway
After reading through the chat and the subsequent dribble that followed I am dumbfounded. Not much change from my usual state I know but I will weigh in never the less.
The chart to me lack 1 very important error that crops up for many (especially novice shooter) and it very difficult to quantify in terms of the effect on your shot placement (so every chart like this leaves it out.) The error I refer to is watching the target instead of your sight picture.
Personally I think these charts are as useful and a map to atlantis. There's so many ways to get there, but when you do get there your underwater anyway.
The best way for ANYONE to improve their shooting is to focus on the basic principals of stance, grip, hold, sights, trigger and follow through.
Things like error charts (whilst they can be helpful in very specific situations) can be dangerous especially to new shooters because they give you too much information and one can begin to worry about errors they have never even thought of. Knowledge is power but too much is corrupting (same as power.)
That's my 2 cents anyway
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Philadelphia
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:52 pm
I agree with you 100% -- what you say is exactly the bottom line.lastman wrote:The best way for ANYONE to improve their shooting is to focus on the basic principals of stance, grip, hold, sights, trigger and follow through.
Any chart is inherently misleading and can easily have new shooters chasing their tails while distracting focus 180 degrees away from what's actually important for improvement.
Even just ten minutes with any decent coach is worth far more than ten years with useless charts.
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wolfpengap
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:21 pm
Very Helpful
I was not able to call my shots until I saw Shot Analysis(another version of the one posted). When a shot went off course - I was clueless to the cause. Now I can clearly see when i move the sight alignment when I squeezed the trigger or when I heeled the shot. Dry firing me showed my why a lot of my shots dropped low.
My focus during the shot process is only the positive - grip, sight alingments etc. After the shot is done, I analyze what felt good and what did not and refocus my energy on the positive movments.
If I only thought of the postives SHOTS - (A 10) AND how everything was perfect - I would not have a lot to think about.
I do want to thank those that had positive contribution to the discussion - as a novice shooter it was very informative.
My focus during the shot process is only the positive - grip, sight alingments etc. After the shot is done, I analyze what felt good and what did not and refocus my energy on the positive movments.
If I only thought of the postives SHOTS - (A 10) AND how everything was perfect - I would not have a lot to think about.
I do want to thank those that had positive contribution to the discussion - as a novice shooter it was very informative.
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2650 Plus
Post Subject
For Wolfpengap:In my opinion thinking of any thing other than the shot sequence while delivering the shot is absolutely the wrong way to deliver the shot. You have touched on this when you wrote that you would have very little to think about if you only thought about positive things. And thinking only about the positive steps as you execute the shot sequence is the most effective way to shoot a perfect shot. Try it, you may find the pot of gold. Good Shooting Bill Horton
Totally agreed.
I find it hard to understand that if you were only focusing on the positives there would be little to think about.
If find when things are going wrong and I start to get negative I break things down to their smallest parts.
Focusing on things such as raising the pistol correctly, breathing at the right time and bringing the sights into focus can really do wonders for your confidence and put you back on the right track.
Focusing on shooting 10's makes life difficult. Think about the things that you want to do correctly and they will happen. The shot being in the middle of the card is merely a representation that you did everything correctly
I find it hard to understand that if you were only focusing on the positives there would be little to think about.
If find when things are going wrong and I start to get negative I break things down to their smallest parts.
Focusing on things such as raising the pistol correctly, breathing at the right time and bringing the sights into focus can really do wonders for your confidence and put you back on the right track.
Focusing on shooting 10's makes life difficult. Think about the things that you want to do correctly and they will happen. The shot being in the middle of the card is merely a representation that you did everything correctly
An interesting thread and discussion on coaching, the only problem I see is what level are you aiming at ?
The Wheel of misfortune has its place in the overall task of leaning how to shoot, the possible causes of errors and an aid in leaning how to call your shot.
It has a different value to the new shooter leaning the basics, than to the top club shooter. It has virtually no value to the international level shooter.
Look at the wheel in relation to what level it is aimed at, and who it will assist most.
The Wheel of misfortune has its place in the overall task of leaning how to shoot, the possible causes of errors and an aid in leaning how to call your shot.
It has a different value to the new shooter leaning the basics, than to the top club shooter. It has virtually no value to the international level shooter.
Look at the wheel in relation to what level it is aimed at, and who it will assist most.
Personally I don't agree.
Nearly every error made at any level comes from a mistake in one of the most basic elements of shot production. These errors can cause a shot to be placed in a number of areas. It is only your understanding of the basic elements that change as you get better... it's not that your errors become more complicated.
For example if you jerk the trigger it usually push the shot toward 7 oclock, however it can pull the shot up towards 1 oclock. For the wheel to say that jerking will only go toward 7 oclock is misleading.
Personally I think the error wheels are flawed in that they say only 1 technical error will cause a shot to land in a certain spot and that if you reproduce the same error it will land in the same area.
Not to mention that they are taking you from focusing on the positive aspects of your shot to a negative aspect of your shot.
So with this in mind I will give you a procedure to reverse engineering your shot.
1. Complete the shot (obviously)
2. Follow through while continuing your shot.
3. Once you have COMPLETED the shot think about 3 things that you did well.
4. Visualize each aspect that you did well and replicate them in the next shot.
Note: it does not matter what these 3 things are. Even if you shot an awful shot in the 1 ring you will have still done at least 3 things correctly. Even if 1 of them was load the pistol correctly, you still did it well.
For anyone who doesn't believe in what I have written... give it a try, what have you got to lose (it might work.)
Nearly every error made at any level comes from a mistake in one of the most basic elements of shot production. These errors can cause a shot to be placed in a number of areas. It is only your understanding of the basic elements that change as you get better... it's not that your errors become more complicated.
For example if you jerk the trigger it usually push the shot toward 7 oclock, however it can pull the shot up towards 1 oclock. For the wheel to say that jerking will only go toward 7 oclock is misleading.
Personally I think the error wheels are flawed in that they say only 1 technical error will cause a shot to land in a certain spot and that if you reproduce the same error it will land in the same area.
Not to mention that they are taking you from focusing on the positive aspects of your shot to a negative aspect of your shot.
So with this in mind I will give you a procedure to reverse engineering your shot.
1. Complete the shot (obviously)
2. Follow through while continuing your shot.
3. Once you have COMPLETED the shot think about 3 things that you did well.
4. Visualize each aspect that you did well and replicate them in the next shot.
Note: it does not matter what these 3 things are. Even if you shot an awful shot in the 1 ring you will have still done at least 3 things correctly. Even if 1 of them was load the pistol correctly, you still did it well.
For anyone who doesn't believe in what I have written... give it a try, what have you got to lose (it might work.)
You do not need any chart to tell you what you are doing wrong. I have never used it and I would not be able to tell you if you are doing X your shot goes over there.
If you shoot every shot the same way (down to the very last detail) every time you will shoot 10's. The more you work on being consistent the better you get.
I have a feeling people look at a target and see an 8 and try and blame it on what ever the chart says when the reality is the sights were not lined up. Even better they jerked the trigger and the sight were not lined up and the chart tells them they heeled it. The premise behind the chart is the shooter on only doing one thing that caused the missed shot and if they did not they would have shot a 10.
If you want to shoot more 10's repeat what you did the last time you shot a 10. Then do it again...
If you shoot every shot the same way (down to the very last detail) every time you will shoot 10's. The more you work on being consistent the better you get.
I have a feeling people look at a target and see an 8 and try and blame it on what ever the chart says when the reality is the sights were not lined up. Even better they jerked the trigger and the sight were not lined up and the chart tells them they heeled it. The premise behind the chart is the shooter on only doing one thing that caused the missed shot and if they did not they would have shot a 10.
If you want to shoot more 10's repeat what you did the last time you shot a 10. Then do it again...
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2650 Plus
Post Subject
Paulo, there has never been a 22 that shoots as eratic a group as you posted. Let me sugest that you should concentrate on the fundamentals. Train your trigger finger to apply a steadily increasing pressure to the trigger that causes the pistol to fire without disturbing the stillness and sight allignment. Once the trigger finger is doing this,let it move while you concentrate on perfecting sight allignment. Stay on the sights until well after the pistol fires.recover after recoil and reallign the sights. . Good Shooting, Bill Horton
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Philadelphia
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:52 pm