Ten Year Old Cylinder Rule

[jipe]

So, are you saying that Richard has screwed himself by being involved in a conversation about possible changes in a safety time limit on air gun cylinders?

I would agree with this statement: is ones can prove that the shooter is aware of the new rule, for instance bv partiicipating to a discussion on the issue on a forum, this shooter cannot claim that he was not aware of the new rule.

Also, now it is a new rule. But after a while, and I think quite fast it will become "common knowledge" (soon, the manufacturing date of the cylinders will be checked at every competition, clubs will also check the date...) and it will anyway be the case when the bulk of the cylinders will be 10 years old.

I do not think that there are so many 10 years old cylinders yet, its only "early adopters" of the PCP technology who are in this situation.

Of course, its different for CO2 that is a much older technology. And it is also more problematic: if you cannot re-test the old cylinders, I doubt that you can find recently manufactured CO2 cylinders.

Last point: the check of the validity of the cylinder will now be done at every competition => even if a shooter has no problem to use an expired cylinder, he will not be allowed to compete with it.

[jipe]

The same information about duration of use appeared on the FWB german website with, as expected, the same rules as on the Steyr website:
http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modules ... PageId=427
http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modules ... hp5?id=289
http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modules ... hp5?id=288
http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modules ... hp5?id=276

The last link show the general rule with a list of brands: Hammerli, Walther, FWB, Steyr, Rohm, Weihrauch and Anschutz. Tesro is not listed nor the non German/Austrian brands = Morini, Pardini, SAM/Matchguns, Benelli. Will these follow the same rule ?

There is some interresting addiitional information in the FWB documents:
- for aluminium cylinders, they explain that the 10 year limit results from the high/low pressure cycles => this clarify that its the start of use date (or at least date of purchase) that should be taken into account as start date for the 10 years and not the manufacturing date. It also confirms that a seldom used cylinder could be used for a longer period of time without risks.
- for steel cylinders, there is first a corrosion inspection and it is only if there is no corrosion detected that the cylinder can be re-tested.

[Mike Taylor]

So, My Hämmerli AP40 cylinders are marked with a proof date of 01-02.
Is that January 2002 or February 2001?

[rolado]

My cylinders from Morini and Hammerli are both both listed with a life of 20 Years so I would assume they are certified safe and within validity date for 20 years.
In the U.S. a cylinder does not need to be hydro tested if it is under 2" diamite and 2ft.in lenght per DOT.

[FredB]

There is a new rule published by the Steyr cylinder manufcaturer: http://www.steyr-sportwaffen.at/content ... uschen.pdf

Its in german, no information on the english website of Steyr.

Short translation:
- Aluminium cylinder, PCP and CO2, can be used only for ten years starting from the maunfacturing date stamped on the cylinder. They cannot be re-tested. At the end of the ten years duration, they cannot used anymore and must be emptied.
- Steel cylinder, PCP and CO2, can also be used ten years starting at the stamped manufacturing date. They can be re-tested one time for a ten year extension of the usage duration (=> total duration of use = 20 years). The test is done at the manufacturer site and costs 60Euros for PCP and 40Euros for CO2... + shipment ro Germany of course.

No one has commented about this point yet, but IMHO there is absolutely no justification for treating CO2 cylinders the same as PCP cylinders. Does anyone know why the two types were lumped together - other than greed, of course?

FredB

[jipe]

My cylinders from Morini and Hammerli are both both listed with a life of 20 Years so I would assume they are certified safe and within validity date for 20 years.
In the U.S. a cylinder does not need to be hydro tested if it is under 2" diamite and 2ft.in lenght per DOT.

Two remarks:
- about validity: Hammerli has changed the rules as all other German/Austrian manufacturers member of JCM did. For Morini, there seems to be no new rules yet.
- you mix two things: US law and ISSF regulation: ISSF stated that the cylinders must be valid, Hammerli stated that after 10 years they are not valid anymore => you will probably not be allowed to use your Hammerli cylinder in ISSF competition (or any other competition that follows the ISSF rules) after the 10 years limit.

So to summarize, there seems to be two consequences for the shooters:
- insurance in case of explosion of the cylinder: if by lack of chance, one of your cylinder explode and this cylinder is not valid anymore, there is a major chance that the insurance won't pay the damages. In order to avoid insurance problems, clubs might check the validity of the cylinders themselves and refuse to let you use your pistol if the cylinder is not valid anymore.
- competition: probably very soon, the validity of the cylinder will be checked at any competition that follows the ISSF rules.

[Fred Mannis]

And no consequences for manufacturers who sell cylinders that fail because of a lack of appropriate quality control.

[jimsoars]

So what does this do to the market for used guns? When buying, one needs to be quite aware of the dates on the cylinders to avoid having to spend a bunch of extra money to have compliant cylinders. New pistol cylinders are $175+ and rifle are $300+. Sellers may have a more difficult time selling a 6-7 year old gun, regardless of condition. Some guns may not be useable at all because of unavailability of replacement cylinders. Even when buying new, do we get a discount for guns with cylinders that are marked 1 or 2 years old from sitting in stock?

This seems like overkill for something that has not been demonstrated to be a problem. The only failed cylinder that I have heard of was a manufacturing defect and was recalled, and this would not prevent that.

I also think this will decrease participation, as some with perfectly good older guns will not be allowed to participate and they won't go to the expense of replacing their cylinders.

I know that I recently began shooting again and was hoping to shoot some ISSF events here in Colorado this summer. I purchased a FWB P34 with one cylinder and then bought a second from our host. The one that came with the gun was marked 1998 and the backup was 1997. Both are clearly illegal to use now. This probably means a pistol upgrade if I want to shoot ISSF, and not just any upgrade, but one that has a reasonable life left on the cylinders. That won't be cheap!

Maybe compressed air is out and I should just go get an Izzy... I should not have sold my FWB 65 to fund my P34... :(

Jim

[Fred Mannis]

Maybe compressed air is out and I should just go get an Izzy... I should not have sold my FWB 65 to fund my P34... :(

Don't be too sure about that. The new manufacturers rules are said to apply to CO2 cylinders as well as CA. CO2 pressures are much lower - about 60 bar - and are similar to the pressure developed in a SSP pistol. And the cylinder in an SSP pistol is subject to much more pressure cycling than any CO2 or CA pistol. And we know that pressure cycling is the single largest cause of metal fatigue => SSP pistol cylinders will soon be stamped with born-on dates. Better not be standing next to someone shooting an old FWB100 that has been cycled ~ 100,000 times

[CraigE]

Here I thought the clanking of a neanderthal 103/K58 would give a hi-tech shooter next to me peace of mind. What do I know? Will be interesting to see if manufacturers other than Pardini will keep the SSP alive or if it will simply be the used market. And, I think that folks should worry more about cigarette lighters and other pressurized containers in the market place. BTW, don't spill your coffee from the boutique....container reminds you it's hot.

[RobinC]

Hi guys,
As a retired Heath and Safety manager for a major PLC in Europe this thread has reminded me why I retired!
There is a gene deficiency know as the "Jobsworth syndrome", its often heard in the phrase " Ohhh can't do that, it's more than my jobs worth". Once the Jobsworth gets his teeth into some thing it is impossible to overcome with common sense or logic, it is irrelavent that there was no problem there in the first place, at each turn of logic he will complicate the problem. But he can be easily overcome by bulls**t and engineering skill.
We all know there is vitually no danger from a well made cylinder, it will be working at well under its design or destruction limit, and probably masively under, is it so difficult to test that?
Good little business opportunity in these difficult times for some one competent in high pressure air systems( and in engineering its not that high) to research the design limits (or request, surely the manufacturers have an obligation to provide?) test the cylinders, and certify them as safe. The rules say it is the shooters responsibility, so they could not be obliged to use the manufacturer.
But I'm still keeping my Walther LPM-1!!!!
Best regards
Robin

[jipe]

The more I read, the more I think and this story looks more like bullshit.

Assume the problem is metal fatigue created by pressure cycling as stated in the official announcement of Feinwerkbau.

Then, take two cases:
- a passionate match shooter who is training almost everyday, lest say 5 days a week.
- an occasional shooter who shoots AP once a month

The first one cycles his cylinder about 20 times more than the second, so either:
- 10 year are safe for the first => the second can use his cylinder during 200 years !
- 10 years are safe for the second => the first should change his cylinder after six months !

What does this short story mean: that if metal fatigue is the problem, it is just impossible to decide when cylinders must be changed based on manufacturing date and duration.

Now concerning CO2 aluminium cylinders where they state that it is also a problem of metal fatigue. This is pure bullshit since there is no pressure cycling for a cylinder refilled when there is still some liquid CO2 in it since with CO2 the pressure remains constant in the cylinder !

For steel cylinder, yes corrosion is an issue just like with diving bottles but this can be checked.

The rule edicted by the JCM association (of course no single manufacturer dare make such a rule alone since it would mean the end of his business) is a shame and it is a shame that it is supported by ISSF (both new rules came simultaneously, it cannot be a coincidence).

[Richard H]

Thank-you Jipe, you've seen the light this whole thing is nothing more than a cash grab from the Germany/Austrian Manufactures. I hope Morini, Pardini etal play it up, then they will capture more of the market share, and I suspect the Germans will change their tune.

The Chief Designer/Engineer at FWB told a group directly (including myself) when asked the question about the longevity of the cylinders that they were basically good for as long as the forseeable use of the pistol. Then he went on to explain how they were made and over designed ie machined from a solid aluminum billet, over designed for the pressure, no welds or seems ect.

It shouldn't be compared to BBQ cylinders and such as these cylinders are proprietary and they like to change them. A new BBQ tank cost $50 max. there is no competition for pistol cylinders, they control the design and the price. It would be like every BBQ having a different tank, the manufacture changing the tank design and making you buy a new BBQ.

This is nothing more than increasing their profit stream. Or a knee jerk reaction to the misfortunes of Anschutz who for unknown reasons had a bad bunch of cylinders and who's reaction to them in my opinion was lacking.

[GCSInc]

The new ISSF rule change does not seem to be based in fact or science. It’s a fuzzy logic liability smoke screen for some nefarious reason which we may never be told. Unless I can see the data and review the testing criteria, I do not believe there is any proof of danger of these cylinders rupturing as outlined in this thread. You may draw your own conclusions. We can all "what if" for years on this...

[Mike Taylor]

OK, in the rush of discussion, my simple question posted earlier seems to have been overlooked, so I'm repeating it:

My Hämmerli AP40 cylinders are marked with a proof date of 01-02.
Is that January 2002 or February 2001?

Since the cylinders are made in Europe, what is the order of the number representing a date in European format: month/year or year/month?
In my case, it makes a difference of almost a year as to the 'expiry' date of my cylinders.
Please, anyone?

[Mike M.]

I have NO idea.

However, I think it is incumbent on ISSF to establish a tank standard (i.e., threads)...then disallow any PCP gun made after a certain date that does not conform.

Right now, this whole situation works strongly to the advantage of Steyr and Morini...there are enough of those in circulation to support the manufacture of spare cylinders for decades.

But if you are shooting an off-brand, watch out. FWB has a good rep for stocking spares, but I can think of some other companies that do not.

[jimsoars]

The problem is that spares will be built and stocked. Every day that they sit on a shelf or in transit is another day off the life of the cylinder, regardless of usage.

I'm sure there are not new runs of cylinders for my P34 so functionally it's obsolete..

Seem like quite the screwed up process.
Jim

[Richard H]

The new ISSF rule change does not seem to be based in fact or science. It’s a fuzzy logic liability smoke screen for some nefarious reason which we may never be told. Unless I can see the data and review the testing criteria, I do not believe there is any proof of danger of these cylinders rupturing as outlined in this thread. You may draw your own conclusions. We can all "what if" for years on this...

Read the rule it says that the shooter is responsible for the safety of the cylinder.

The ISSF hasn't really said anything.

[Richard H]

The problem is that spares will be built and stocked. Every day that they sit on a shelf or in transit is another day off the life of the cylinder, regardless of usage.

I'm sure there are not new runs of cylinders for my P34 so functionally it's obsolete..

Seem like quite the screwed up process.
Jim

Or they just engrave the date on them when they distribute them.

[jimsoars]

Read the rule it says that the shooter is responsible for the safety of the cylinder.

The ISSF hasn't really said anything.[/quote]

To be precise , as quoted by David Levene:
Rule 6.2.2.8
It is the shooter’s responsibility that any air or Co2 cylinder has been certified as safe and is still within the validity date.

So yes they have and the only quantitative measure is "validity date". ISSF does not state a 10 year rule, but validity date will be established by the mfr. It will be quite a pain for the organizers to know all of the "validity dates" for every model of every type of gun. I'm sure the blanket statements by the manufacturers will be quoted and applied.
Jim