TargetTalk

EdStevens wrote:I'm probably influenced by the fact that I have a bad back, but I believe that the fewer the number of muscles you use to maintain your stance the better. I find it almost impossible not to feel some use of my lower back when trying to hold the 90 degree stance, and just generally feel I have more muscles in play when trying it. More muscles in use, more natural movement and less stability IMO.

We are evolved to use our hands in front of our bodies, not sticking straight out to the sides. (Name one thing people do on a daily basis with their arm sticking out sideways.) I've heard the argument that your arm is more neutral in that position, but frankly that's just not true.

Have a look here:
http://www.issf-sports.org/photoplayer. ... =1447-8707

Or any other pictures of any currently sucessful ISSF pistol shooters and you will see no-one standing chest on the the target.

But, feel free to carry on doing that if you think you are right and everyone else is wrong.

Quinte interesting. Andrea Amore who won the WC final, stands at about 65 degrees, and then he bends his head towards the shoulder.
I make that same mistake, because i have always a stiff neck muscles... Still he wins!

Also, many of those who have the feet and the legs at 90 degrees, twist the upper body! Not a book stance!

therider wrote:Quinte interesting. Andrea Amore who won the WC final, stands at about 65 degrees, and then he bends his head towards the shoulder.
I make that same mistake, because i have always a stiff neck muscles... Still he wins!

Also, many of those who have the feet and the legs at 90 degrees, twist the upper body! Not a book stance!

It may be because Mr. Amore seems to be shooting with right hand but aiming with left eye.

j-team wrote:Or any other pictures of any currently sucessful ISSF pistol shooters and you will see no-one standing chest on the the target.

But, feel free to carry on doing that if you think you are right and everyone else is wrong.

I can see where what I said can be interpreted that way, but I don't stand chest-on to the target. I use about a 40-45 degree stance, since that seems to be where I obtain the least amount of natural movement and feel I use my muscles the least. (Before I lost 30 pounds, I did stand more chest-on mind you.)

I am having problems with my stance. If I am at 90 degrees, then front and rear sights are perfectly in line with my right eye. Vertical position is very consistent. However I need to stretch my shoulder.
A stance with considerably less shoulder muscles strain is for me at about 60-70 degrees. However I find that I have to rotate my wrist too much towards the right, to have back the alignment. Also with this stance sighting is less consistent: sometimes the pistol points to the right and sometimes to the left of target.

jackh wrote:Since starting this discussion I have worked out with the 45degree and 90 degree stance. I think I detect more strength to lift using the 90 degree position. The 90 degree seems to lend adding a small back lean better that the 45 degree. Perhaps different muscles are employed.

I repeat this finding. With further work, I definitely have more lifting strength and endurance with the 90 degree stance arm than with the 45-60 degree stance. I have exercised with surgical tube. Stand on one end of the tube, wrap the other end over the outside of the thumb, and lift to position at the different arm angles. (careful on the elbow)

I am not really looking at alignment right now as I think that can be worked on at the grip. What I am looking for is the best arm strength and stability (and comfort) position. Also I think I see more advantage with back muscles in the 90 degree position.

therider wrote:..However I find that I have to rotate my wrist too much towards the right,...

Keep a neutral wrist position and rotate the pistol in your hand a bit to the right to regain alignment of the sights and your eye. A neutral wrist position is to the forearm as NPA is to the whole position. You desire as natural a position as possible with minimal muscle involvement (bone support) correct? Your wrist is most stable (and most able to be "locked") when it is neutral (zero flexion or extension).

The theory / technique of having the barrel in alignment with the forearm is about recoil control. The idea is the more consistent the recoil arc the more consistent will be muzzle position upon bullet exit ... in other words more accuracy. The real key is consistency, and the closer to "in line" you can get the easier it is to be consistent, but it's not really that difficult to obtain consistent results even with the pistol rotated a bit in the hand.

What little bit of accuracy that is lost by rotating the pistol in the hand is more than made up for by the firmer neutral wrist position. If a .45 BE shooter can consistently control recoil during the rapids with a bit of pistol torque anybody else can too. These guys are more likely to have to rotate the gun in the hand because (especially when shooting EIC) have much less control of the configuration of the gun. And have to sometimes balance trigger reach with wrist position.

So if the rotation is not excessive, and you can properly reach the trigger, try rotating the pistol in the had a few degrees and see if that does not tighten your R/L groupings.

j-team wrote:But, feel free to carry on doing that if you think you are right and everyone else is wrong.

There is a problem with that line of thinking ...

It's right because everyone is doing it ... until it's wrong.

Look at the history of any position ... standing, prone rifle ... Olympic trap ... it does not matter. The same is true of other human activities ... say a golf swing or the movements used in the weight room to "best" strengthen the body.

These positions have "evolved" over time. Evolved is in quotes because sometimes the change has not been linear, and moves back toward a methodology used farther in the past.

At one time everybody who was any good knew that you stood at a 45 degree angel to the target and leaned into the pistol with a slightly cocked elbow during rapid fire (to absorb the recoil). And that's what everybody did, until someone didn't. They they all stopped. Until once again somebody began winning doing something different. Some practical pistol shooters are once again using a relaxed elbow with great success for instance.

Why the change in position / technique over time? A couple of reasons are:

We learn new things, and sometimes that new knowledge is that prior new knowledge we once thought was correct is now view as incorrect.

Single "best practices" seldom are as they don't take into account the myriad of differences caused by the human condition. If a single best way is possible let's list some of them like:

Best sight picture
Best finger placement on the trigger
Stop breathing mid cycle or at the bottom ...or top ... or breathing in ... not while exhaling is better
Grip mainly with just pressure from the middle finger or do we spread the load across several fingers. Pinky anybody?

This is why we try different approaches, use good discipline with our journals (both entries and reviews) and have third party eyes (coaches) look after our performance.

One of the greatest shooters alive ... G. David Tubb says it best, "if I don't like how something is working, I change it and fix it.

Okay ... that was a long post ... sorry guys, I get carried away at times.