At the risk of starting another war, this is my take on lead fouling.
Some barrels experience very little lead fouling, enough that cleaning with wet patches alone will maintain accuracy. Other barrels, often due to surface imperfections (whether tooling marks from manufacture, corrosion, or just wear) will gather more lead, enough that the owner may not consider patches to be wholly effective. How much lead is deposited and the effect of this on grouping varies from barrel to barrel, but I've only come across one barrel where excessive leading (producing a dramatic effect on accuracy) wasn't related to ammunition or a complete lack of maintenance. From memory the chamber was cut slightly off-centre.
A bronze brush is usually considered to remove lead effectively, especially if the bore has been soaked in solvent to loosen the lead. How often this is needed (if at all) depends on the barrel. Brushing won't normally harm the barrel, as the brass wires are much softer than the barrel steel, but the brush can clean too thoroughly for some barrels, so shooters often prefer to brush infrequently to avoid firing fouling shots, as discussed above.
In my experience not many shooters will ever use an abrasive cleaner or bore polish, as solvents are effective enough. Where polishes are used, sometimes it's for a periodic deep clean, say every year or two. In others it's used more regularly in preference to a bronze brush. Polishes can be used to deal with severe lead fouling; brushes will remove lead, but not deal with the underlying cause. A polish can be used to smooth the surface. This sort of leading seems rare nowadays though, and I've never heard of this having to be done.
If you are worried about lead fouling in your barrel, give it a clean. Brushing won't damage the barrel, but you may need to fire a number of fouling shots to fill in any loose or worn spots before accuracy stabilises. How many foulers (if any) will depend on your individual barrel. Alternatively, beg, steal, or borrow a borescope and visually inspect the bore for lead, you may not actually have any if the barrel was cleaned regularly.
new .22 barrel needed, best gunsmith to do the work?
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
In addition,
if you believe some of the benchrest guys, leading isn't as much of an issue as the buildup of carbon deposits which form a ring just ahead of the case mouth.
Once this carbon ring reaches a critical thickness, accuracy drops off.
Supposedly....
They will use something like Iosso to remove it - or a Phosphor Bronze brush PULLED from muzzle to breech (which makes some sense to me).
But then, some of them seem to change barrels as frequently as I change my underwear...
K.
if you believe some of the benchrest guys, leading isn't as much of an issue as the buildup of carbon deposits which form a ring just ahead of the case mouth.
Once this carbon ring reaches a critical thickness, accuracy drops off.
Supposedly....
They will use something like Iosso to remove it - or a Phosphor Bronze brush PULLED from muzzle to breech (which makes some sense to me).
But then, some of them seem to change barrels as frequently as I change my underwear...
K.
Eley Ammunition
When Bert Brookes ran the Customer Range at Eley he told me that the USA was a fairly small market. The US importer has his current inventory listed on-line, and it's not much more than the Customer Range had the days I went there to test TENEX. The most significant figure he shared was that ~30% of all TENEX sales were through the Customer Range.Cumbrian wrote: Finally, I have read - how true it may be I cannot say - that Eley send their best batches of Tenex to America and the rest of the world, simply because the UK market is small in comparison.
Hi all,
Happy to bring the subject back to new barrels & also happy to let it meander off in any direction.
I did back off as there seemed to be a few not too pleasant comments being added, one I think directed at myself (poster did not read the title of the thread) & I was always bought up with ' if you cannot say something nice about someone, don't say anything'
Right, back to barrels, I decided it was just as cheap to make a complete barrelled action as it was to just re-barrel. The theory being that nobody buys a s/h barrel but a barrelled action would sell for about the same price as it would cost me for the action. I have sourced the action no problem (thought this would be the hard part) however I cannot (easily) get a barrel. The one and only barrel manufacturer in the UK has just been sold and do not seem to answer their phone or return messages. I have left it in the hands of my rifle maker, with it being the festive period have not chased him, but will resume my quest for the best rifle ever made next week :o)
As for VFG paste, well like everything shooting, we all have our own experiences and ideas but it is very difficult to prove scientifically. My rifle was first given loads of aerosol cleaner squirted up the barrel & then a jolly good rodding with a new NSRA plastic coated rod & PB brush dipped in 009. Next the VFG paste. First I tried a jag with fourbytwo as instructed but found the jag was too big to easily wrap the cloth around so reverted to a VFG felt adaptor on the NSRA rod. The rifle was clamped so the barrel was against a stop, to ensure the felt would not exit. Then with two felts on the rod & VFG paste I swept the barrel back and forth in long complete strokes, added more paste, more sweeps, changed the felts.....for a couple of hours. The VFG paste quickly turns black, just like metal polish & makes a horrible mess. I regularly cleaned the rod & breach. After this I cleaned the rifle with 009 and loads of felts to totally remove any trace of the blue (now black) VFG paste. This takes ages! finally I burnished the bore with tetra Teflon gun grease. I could not get the Lupus oil as recommended in the VFG instructions.
Whether this shifted the lead, who knows, without a bore scope & I can't find a suitable one to purchase (most seem to be 10mm USB, we need a optical bore scope with the lens looking at the rifling, not along the bore)
How well does it shoot after all of this abuse? well by coincidence my batch tested ammo had just arrived (dealer was charged the full £225 RRP per 1000 for it, so could have bought directly from Eley) I first put a few dry felts through the barrel and then settled down to do a 25 yard prone 10 bull. The sighters were fine, so moved onto the card. Now once I move onto my card I never scope it (open up a whole new debate :o) I felt relaxed & comfortable, position felt good, no pulse movement so knocked out the ten shots. Examination of the card showed every shot was in the ten ring, no squeakers :o)
Was this luck, was it a fluke? Who knows. I normally knock out at least one 'ton' a month. So onto my next card. I have only ever done two consecutive 'tons' twice' so could I beat this? Again settled down, all felt well, shot 1,2,3,4 all fine. On shooting number 5, the rifle report was much deeper and there was more of a kickback & rifle movement. The case was stiff to eject. :o( 6,7,8,9,10 all seemed ok. On examination of the card, all nice bulls except for number 5 which had gone high, just nicking the ring thus scoring 9.
Have not shot since, due to Christmas festivities. Will be resuming again next week, I try to shoot at least twice a week, so it will be interesting to see the scores over the coming weeks & months.
Of course all of this is subjective, I have good & bad days, a few weeks ago I shot a card that only scored 94 :o( my worst for a long time.
Right, my fingers need a rest........
Happy to bring the subject back to new barrels & also happy to let it meander off in any direction.
I did back off as there seemed to be a few not too pleasant comments being added, one I think directed at myself (poster did not read the title of the thread) & I was always bought up with ' if you cannot say something nice about someone, don't say anything'
Right, back to barrels, I decided it was just as cheap to make a complete barrelled action as it was to just re-barrel. The theory being that nobody buys a s/h barrel but a barrelled action would sell for about the same price as it would cost me for the action. I have sourced the action no problem (thought this would be the hard part) however I cannot (easily) get a barrel. The one and only barrel manufacturer in the UK has just been sold and do not seem to answer their phone or return messages. I have left it in the hands of my rifle maker, with it being the festive period have not chased him, but will resume my quest for the best rifle ever made next week :o)
As for VFG paste, well like everything shooting, we all have our own experiences and ideas but it is very difficult to prove scientifically. My rifle was first given loads of aerosol cleaner squirted up the barrel & then a jolly good rodding with a new NSRA plastic coated rod & PB brush dipped in 009. Next the VFG paste. First I tried a jag with fourbytwo as instructed but found the jag was too big to easily wrap the cloth around so reverted to a VFG felt adaptor on the NSRA rod. The rifle was clamped so the barrel was against a stop, to ensure the felt would not exit. Then with two felts on the rod & VFG paste I swept the barrel back and forth in long complete strokes, added more paste, more sweeps, changed the felts.....for a couple of hours. The VFG paste quickly turns black, just like metal polish & makes a horrible mess. I regularly cleaned the rod & breach. After this I cleaned the rifle with 009 and loads of felts to totally remove any trace of the blue (now black) VFG paste. This takes ages! finally I burnished the bore with tetra Teflon gun grease. I could not get the Lupus oil as recommended in the VFG instructions.
Whether this shifted the lead, who knows, without a bore scope & I can't find a suitable one to purchase (most seem to be 10mm USB, we need a optical bore scope with the lens looking at the rifling, not along the bore)
How well does it shoot after all of this abuse? well by coincidence my batch tested ammo had just arrived (dealer was charged the full £225 RRP per 1000 for it, so could have bought directly from Eley) I first put a few dry felts through the barrel and then settled down to do a 25 yard prone 10 bull. The sighters were fine, so moved onto the card. Now once I move onto my card I never scope it (open up a whole new debate :o) I felt relaxed & comfortable, position felt good, no pulse movement so knocked out the ten shots. Examination of the card showed every shot was in the ten ring, no squeakers :o)
Was this luck, was it a fluke? Who knows. I normally knock out at least one 'ton' a month. So onto my next card. I have only ever done two consecutive 'tons' twice' so could I beat this? Again settled down, all felt well, shot 1,2,3,4 all fine. On shooting number 5, the rifle report was much deeper and there was more of a kickback & rifle movement. The case was stiff to eject. :o( 6,7,8,9,10 all seemed ok. On examination of the card, all nice bulls except for number 5 which had gone high, just nicking the ring thus scoring 9.
Have not shot since, due to Christmas festivities. Will be resuming again next week, I try to shoot at least twice a week, so it will be interesting to see the scores over the coming weeks & months.
Of course all of this is subjective, I have good & bad days, a few weeks ago I shot a card that only scored 94 :o( my worst for a long time.
Right, my fingers need a rest........
I'm glad to hear the deep cleaning worked. A tub of paste and a big bag of felts is a lot cheaper than a new barrel. Hopely it will perform well at longer range too, where any imperfections show up more readily.
I'm not at all surprised that fourbytwo didn't fit. It's not the fault of the jag, but with the cloth. Fourbytwo was originally made for .303in barrels, so no .22 jag will be thin enough. You have to cut it down to fit a .22 bore, although this is a bit fiddly. If you meant the rectangular "Bisley" patches, there is an art to rolling these onto the jag; lay it at an angle, pinch, and roll.
Don't worry about any of the blunt comments posted earlier, I think these were all directed at me. Any issues have been resolved amicably off-forum.
I'm not at all surprised that fourbytwo didn't fit. It's not the fault of the jag, but with the cloth. Fourbytwo was originally made for .303in barrels, so no .22 jag will be thin enough. You have to cut it down to fit a .22 bore, although this is a bit fiddly. If you meant the rectangular "Bisley" patches, there is an art to rolling these onto the jag; lay it at an angle, pinch, and roll.
Don't worry about any of the blunt comments posted earlier, I think these were all directed at me. Any issues have been resolved amicably off-forum.
Sorry to revive an oldish thread however I've had exactly the same experience last week! I had a batch testing appointment at Bisley with RWS and the results were terrible too. The best group size measured 15.5mm where other rifles were at about 12.5mm with the same ammo. My tenex control was 26.4mm!
I popped over to Robert Nibbs as he's not too far and he again found lead fouling in the barrel and recommended the same course of action, two hours with VFG blue paste (really nice guy and very helpful). So last night I pulled the workmate into the lounge and spent two hours polishing the barrel whilst watching the telly. By the end the barrel was warm to the touch!
I haven't had chance to get to the range to try the results however I'm not expecting the same results as Nigel as the polishing has removed the lead so effectively that I can now see the pitting that it was filling! It would appear that although my 29 year old 1813 has had very little use, it also has had very little cleaning too.
So my question is just how detriment to performance is slight pitting in the barrel? Thanks Bryan
I popped over to Robert Nibbs as he's not too far and he again found lead fouling in the barrel and recommended the same course of action, two hours with VFG blue paste (really nice guy and very helpful). So last night I pulled the workmate into the lounge and spent two hours polishing the barrel whilst watching the telly. By the end the barrel was warm to the touch!
I haven't had chance to get to the range to try the results however I'm not expecting the same results as Nigel as the polishing has removed the lead so effectively that I can now see the pitting that it was filling! It would appear that although my 29 year old 1813 has had very little use, it also has had very little cleaning too.
So my question is just how detriment to performance is slight pitting in the barrel? Thanks Bryan
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