Trouble when attempting to charge Air Tanks for PCP.

[Rover]

Make an offer.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=57287

[10M_Stan]

Here is a link from Crosman on where to fill a SCUBA or HPA tank (it's not complete and my list shows only HPA):

https://www.crosman.com/discover/airgun ... ll-station

A divers certificate is not required by law before a SCUBA tank can be filled, the tank condition including inspection and hydro are what are needed (by law) - but any independent shop can refuse to fill a tank. I've never had a dive shop tell me I needed a divers certificate to fill a SCUBA tank. Maybe they make money from a Diver certification program they run? If a tank explodes, it always happens when being filled - regardless of the owners credentials.

However, welding shops around me limit the size they will sell an owner (I think it's 80 cu ft) with any tank larger requiring a lease. My argon welding gas tank is steel. FWIW, some air gun shooters use high pressure nitrogen from a welding shop which is actually dryer and cleaner than SCUBA air.

Checking on where the local fire department fills their SCBA tanks may provide a source of air. Shipping filled SCBA tanks is not encouraged, and may be prohibited by DOT standards. But they may have their own compressor, and not fill unauthorized bottles.

Also, COPV (composite over-wrap pressure vessel) tanks have a finite life from the manufacture. Carbon fiber over-wrap aluminum core tanks are COPV's. Those are the 4500 psig tanks typically sold by most airgun stores, and they expire. So, it's a good idea to find out the life expectancy of the tank.

p.s. shops near the coast (e.g. Atlantic Ocean) may be more likely to fill SCUBA tanks than those inland due to competition.

[Amati]

... shops near the coast (e.g. Atlantic Ocean) may be more likely to fill SCUBA tanks than those inland due to competition.

Thanks for the link ^^ Stan.
The dive shop/certification school I visited yesterday is the only such outfit on the Atlantic encircled island (Amelia) where I live.
Same results going up the coast into Georgia or South to Jacksonville.

BTW I had previously looked into the suggested ^^^ path to SSP pistols and so far I have returned both a FAS6004 and a AV-V10 and I've shot the Baikal IZH-46 of which FWB made a copy with their 103. This last one is the best of the lot but their owners price them to their weight in precious metals.

[Amati]

Here is a link from Crosman on where to fill a SCUBA or HPA tank (it's not complete and my list shows only HPA):

https://www.crosman.com/discover/airgun ... ll-station

This is too much .... I just plugged in my Zip 32034 and the nearest hit is in Tampa, 200 miles West where Pardini is.

[10M_Stan]

The next least expensive path is using a Hill pump with the 200 DIN adapter as sold by Pilkguns. The Hill pump is out of stock at Pilkguns, but not at Amazon and other retailers. The 200 DIN to Hill pump adapter is an important fitting.

The 'trick' to using a Hill pump or any 'stirrup' pump as the British say, is to use body weight by keeping the arms locked during the downward stroke. Also, no more than ~ 50 strokes should be made at any time, or session, to keep the temperature of the pump down. These Hill pumps have a 'patented' air dryer gadget, which sort of works. I say sort of, because it will remove moisture from the air entering the pump, but not any condensation caused by compressing air in the pump. Only a high pressure air filter/dryer, such as the type used on SCUBA compressors, will do that. The lack of a high pressure dryer is the reason to keep the base cool and limit the number of strokes, because as the temperature increases any moisture in the high pressure air will not be trapped in the pump base. The air pressure should be bled from the base of the pump at the end of the fill to blow out any collected moisture.

Also, more than one air cylinder is needed (IMO) with a hand pump with the cylinders alternated. The reasoning is to use the off-gun cylinder to be filled and allow time to stop during filling and let everything cool. Keeping the pump cool extends the o-ring life and subsequent time between rebuilds. I've got a (3rd generation?) Hill pump, it's well made, and works fine.

If the sessions are ~ 15 min to 30 min apart and the 50 strokes/session guide is applied, then the air cylinders should not have moisture. However, and this is for any pump, if the cylinder is filled in the summer and kept until winter without use then there will be condensation. So, the cylinder should not be kept filled when stored. Storing the cylinder with ~ 1/2 pressure will prevent any moisture due to condensation.

A SCUBA tank is much easier to use.

Edit: the number of strokes (50 was stated) needs to be determined by trial-and-error with the temperature of the pump base. Once the base warms up (~ 120 degF), then that is the number of strokes per session.

[TenMetrePeter]

As a FYI, when the pistol cylinder is filled, it will warm up. Leave the cylinder attached to the SCUBA tank with the valve open for ~ 5 min to let it cool. Otherwise, when the cylinder cools, the fill will be less.

NB As the OP is new to PCP it is worth saying you can only do this if the scuba tank fill is less than gun cylinder rating. With a 200 bar gun cylinder and 300 bar tank you can cause severe damage. My gun cylinder deforms irreparably by design on overpressure.. Even a full 232 bar tank is not recommended for open equalising filling. Use the gauge and top up a few times to cylinder rated pressure over a minute or so to overcome warming effect. It is not necessary to match gun and tank pressures when using a fill gauge.
Someone will say you can get regulators for this but they're unnecessary.

[Amati]

.... With a 200 bar gun cylinder and 300 bar tank you can cause severe damage. My gun cylinder deforms irreparably by design on overpressure....

The tank I'll be using is the Air Venturi Carbon Fiber 88 cu.in. which has a 4,500 psi max fill pressure but it is regulated to a 2,900 psi output.
My FWB-P11 has a 200 bar cylinder which is .... exactly 2900 psi.

[Amati]

My body weight is 135 lbs. hardly enough to make an impression on the pump.

[Rover]

Odd. When I weighed 135 I could do 100 pushups and that's pre Marine Corps training where I put on 40 pounds and kept the same waist size.

Of course, I'm heavier now, but have absolutely no problem charging a SSP.

[spektr]

[quote="Amati"]Not good news I fear.

After reading the Pilkington Guide I visited the one and only dive shop within 50 miles and met with the owner.
He had several used aluminum tanks, just like Stan's ^^ and was willing to sell one to me but he would not fill it unless I produced a diver certification card. He said that it is illegal to fill any tanks that could be used for diving unless the owner has a current valid divers card.

[spektr]

[quote="Amati"]Not good news I fear.

After reading the Pilkington Guide I visited the one and only dive shop within 50 miles and met with the owner.
He had several used aluminum tanks, just like Stan's ^^ and was willing to sell one to me but he would not fill it unless I produced a diver certification card. He said that it is illegal to fill anytanks that could be used for diving unless the owner has a current valid divers card.

He is actually sort of correct. scuba tanks can only be filled for NAUI dive card members as indicated in NAUI dive regulations. The education part here is to have the dive shop owner call NAUI and vet a copy of their "not for scuba use" filling regs. You will be subject to all tank inspection and recert regs, BUT its no big deal once they have the rules. Your shop owner did the right thing by not listening to a non-NAUI guy teling him its fine to fill your tank, so just go to him and ask him to call NAUI for guidance and tell him you will follow all the rules....I did this and of was no big deal...... Now I also bought a small tank even though I need to fill it fairy often, but droping by the shop spending fill money and being a regular makes life easier for you IMHO. Also, my wife is afraid of a big tank..... One shop near me fills "bail out bottles" for free since divers had a bad day when they drain one...... Its all in the approach and getting him NAUI data

[Amati]

.... The education part here is to have the dive shop owner call NAUI and vet a copy of their "not for scuba use" filling regs. You will be subject to all tank inspection and recert regs, BUT its no big deal once they have the rules ....

Thank you, very helpful! NAUI may well hold the key to this. I'll study whatever they may have on line and call them for the rest.

[atomicgale]

Remember, a 4,500psi tank is how they BLEW-UP JAWS! at the end of that shark movie from the 70's.

[atomicgale]

Seriously, keeping a scuba tank filled ranks as the #1 PITA-thing in air guns.

I'm Fire Department & my buddy is a card-carrying-retired-METRO-DADE-SWAT Recovery Diver & our "Dive Guy" still cringes when I get him to fill air gun tanks due to professional liability reasons.

Plus, our Fire Department compressor always seems to be listed "Out-of-Service" because we're too broke in rural Tennessee to actually get the budget to fix them damn thing.

Donations accepted!

[10M_Stan]

The most expensive option, but one that gives autonomy, is to buy a compressor and air tank. This guy (Joe Brancato) out of California has a website: http://www.airtanksforsale.com and sells air tanks (duh) along with compressors. Bauer is a standard industrial model, which generally cost ~ $3500, but used models can be found around $2000. The tank costs $500 to $700, depending on the size and options.

There is also the newer (Chinese) Alpha-Carette compressor that he sells. He put out a couple of youtube videos on the compressor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KasBUZ4lX84, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2G66k7OFcQ

The Chinese Alpha-Carette compressor with a carbon fiber tank and his filter/dryer would cost ~$2400. The Bauer Junior (which is generally rated for 200 DIN - SCUBA tanks in the USA aren't 300 DIN) already has a filter/dryer and produces SCUBA tank air. The Chinese Alpha-Carette, even with Joe's filter/dryer does not produce SCUBA air - but it's suitable air for airguns.

I don't own an Alpha-Carette, but may purchase one at some point. I already have a shoebox compressor and an Altros booster which allow filling a 4500 psig tank. But neither compressor has a discharge filter/dryer, so more knowledge about compressors is needed, and certainly never directly fill a gun cylinder. These compressors/boosters are more of a hobby of a hobby for me. The appeal to me of the shoebox and Altros booster are size, both are small with the Altros booster fitting in a hand tool box which makes for easy storage.

People who are serious (and smart) about airguns buy a Bauer (or similar) SCUBA compressor. It's comparable to buying a FWB or Steyr airgun in that you won't wear it out and it will always have good resale value. But it requires a dedicated location due to weight and size. The shoebox and Altros booster use o-ring seals for compression - similar to a hand pump - and are not in the same class as a Bauer, but they do work (and are tiny by comparison). I've not formed an opinion about the Chinese Carette compressor but Joe Brancato tends to sell better quality products from my observations over the years.

If any compressor, other than a Bauer (or similar) is purchased, some research and due diligence are prudent. There are a lot of junk compressors from China that have flooded the market. IMO of course.

[Elmas]

It's not too late to return the gun for a refund. Then buy a SSP and avoid all such questions (and cost).

Not everyone goes the SSP way .

the P11 is a nice toy .

The SCUBA tank is always useful , when full should be good for over 300 fills of the cylinder , perhaps a bit more .

[Amati]

Thank you Stan for this most helpful treatise on the subject.
As tempted as I am to go down the Bauer path I must remember that for me the PCP gun is "just" the practice at home tool to support the Bullseye hobby. Another hobby within the hobby would test my attention and loyalties.

I started with a FAS 6004 and now I'm thinking about cancelling my FWB P-11 order and getting a Gehmann or a Morini. It is a minefield ....
BTW which one do you like?

[Amati]

Just came across this FWB-P8X https://www.feinwerkbau.de/en/Sporting- ... Model-P-8X

And after I finished drooling over the owners manual here:
https://www.feinwerkbau.de/en/Service%2 ... duct-range

I had to buy one.

The lowly practice tool could now well be on the way to become the primary hobby.

[spektr]

The P8 is an update on the P44, which I love. Make sure you buy the extra goodies like different width front blades and the weights for it pretty soon. I hqad my P44 a few years and not that the P8 is out there, the little P44 parts are hard to get... Service however isnt a problem,

[Amati]

Thanks, I'm already getting a list of part numbers ready.
And how about this:
"Anatomical designed 3D-Grip made of nutwood
(pivoted by 20°, twistable by 9°) with adjustable
hand rest. Available in various grip sizes."