TargetTalk

What rules are you going to ignore, and what ones are you going to keep: all for sake of convenience?!
In my view you can't pick and chose. Them the rules.

The scores would be meaningless if not all held to the same basic standards.

SamEEE wrote:What rules are you going to ignore, and what ones are you going to keep: all for sake of convenience?!
In my view you can't pick and chose. Them the rules.

The scores would be meaningless if not all held to the same basic standards.

The "basic" standards are the same. Same distance, same ammo, same pistols, same time limits, same "target". This is an obscure rule that only really affects people who don't have access to electronic target systems. Given that the ISSF REQUIRES that you can't cover up the monitor of an electronic target system, it would make more sense if the rule required people with paper targets to use a spotting scope.

If you want to kill the sport, go ahead and enforce rules that make no sense in the context of beginning & lower level shooters at local club matches. I would gladly throw away my scope if I never had to shoot on paper again.

I hope someone can explain to me the reason that ISSF forbids scopes for AP. I've shot only two sanctioned matches and both used SUIS targets. It's really nice to take the shot, call it, then verify it on the monitor. When I practice at home, I take the shot, call it, then look through the scope to verify my call. What's the difference between looking at a monitor versus looking through a scope? Does the scope provide some advantage to the shooter that I'm not seeing? Why permit it at 25 and 50 M but not for AP. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Please help me understand.

Dennis in the PRK

Gwhite wrote:is is an obscure rule that only really affects people who don't have access to electronic target systems.

If you want to kill the sport, go ahead and enforce rules that make no sense in the context of beginning & lower level shooters at local club matches. I would gladly throw away my scope if I never had to shoot on paper again.

Mechanical target changers, they're really good and allow people to shoot a match at their own pace. It surprises me that MIT doesn't have electronic target changers, they are pretty commonplace in most parts of the world.
Can't really go about a match with any degree of success if you have to stop and go for a walk every 10 minutes. We have to shoot 50m 20 shots per half hour and it sucks. Can't establish a rhythm, and what is worse is if you do then you have to stop and go for a 100m walk. I hate walking.

I digress:
I suggest the Rika Sydney system. The club I belong to has 10 of them and have given good service for 12 years now.
They are about a 1/5 of the cost of an electronic bay. We score using a DISAG IV in competition.

https://www.euroshooting.eu/en/index.php?detail=RIKA

If you don't shoot by the rules I don't think you can really call it ISSF/Olympic Pistol. I guess that the ISSF ruled against them because actually scoping at 10m is a shitty solution to host a match, which is what the sport is all about; competitive shooting.

dulcmr-man wrote:
I hope someone can explain to me the reason that ISSF forbids scopes for AP....

What is the logic that forbids wearing of blue jeans at pistol matches? There isnt an obvious one but there is probably a historical reason and they are the rules at national matches. Sport is all about best efforts within the rules of the game

SamEEE wrote:

Gwhite wrote:is is an obscure rule that only really affects people who don't have access to electronic target systems.

If you want to kill the sport, go ahead and enforce rules that make no sense in the context of beginning & lower level shooters at local club matches. I would gladly throw away my scope if I never had to shoot on paper again.

Mechanical target changers, they're really good and allow people to shoot a match at their own pace. It surprises me that MIT doesn't have electronic target changers, they are pretty commonplace in most parts of the world.
Can't really go about a match with any degree of success if you have to stop and go for a walk every 10 minutes. We have to shoot 50m 20 shots per half hour and it sucks. Can't establish a rhythm, and what is worse is if you do then you have to stop and go for a 100m walk. I hate walking.

MIT has mechanical target changers, using 1960's vintage overhead mechanical hand cranks. We shoot 5 shots per target. Having a scope is extremely useful if you want to make fine adjustments to your shot process in mid-target. Fortunately, collegiate shooting in the USA is governed by the NRA, which does not have the no-scope rule. When electronic targets are available at away matches, we don't use scopes.

Electronic targets at MIT are not likely any time soon. We have no storage space, and the range is primarily used for .22 basic pistol classes. Anything left downrange will get ventilated sooner or later, so there is no place to leave the target hardware safely. We might be able to swing them down from above the ceiling baffles, but even storing the bench displays would be problematic. We are lucky to still have a viable shooting program at all, and all available capital is being saved up to rebuild the backstop system.

If you don't care then I agree with Muffo:

Muffo wrote:Ng 20x33 spotting scope is what you seek

They are a nice piece of gear. Packs into a really small case. The 30x scope is better in my view for marginal conditions at 50m.[/quote]
They are a nice piece of gear. Packs into a really small case. The 30x scope is better in my view for marginal conditions at 50m.


I have the larger, 30X NG scope. While really well built, its field of view is SO small that I spend way too much time just finding my AP target. It lets you see about to the five ring, no more. Forget looking at all four at once.

I made the mistake of taking it to an NRA high power rifle match once. Without specific landmarks to follow, it was nearly impossible to find the row of targets against green grass and green trees background. Once there, it was quite nice, but don't dare bump it or you get to start all over.

Am waking this thread up with one change, I am Air Rifle 10 meters shooting at paper target, AR-5/10, length x width = 10.5" x 12", would like to see entire target in the field of view, plus a bit of wiggle room. Am finding the old physics book for the field of view equation.

alpineboard wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:09 pm Am finding the old physics book for the field of view equation.

Let: Angle Θ = min. field of view (in degrees)
Solve: arc-Tangent of Angle Θ
arctan Θ = Viewing area (one-dimension) / Distance (convert to meters)
Let: Viewing area = 14" x 14" ; Let: Distance to target = 10.000 meters
arctan Θ = 14 inches / 10 meters = [ (14"/12")/3.28086 ] / 10 meters
arctan Θ = 0.3555 / 10.000
Inverse tangent of Θ shall be your minimum angle-field-of-view
Solve:
Tan-1¹(0.03555) = Θ = 2.04°

Solution: Increase magnification image to not "narrower" than 2-degrees & you'll have the entire target in view.

dulcmr-man wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:32 pm I hope someone can explain to me the reason that ISSF forbids scopes for AP.
Dennis in the PRK

The reason is simple, at a high level ISSF match, if shot on paper (highly unlikly these days) you only shoot one shot per target.
Scope is not required.

For home use, I use a spotting scope. I do not care about the "no spotting scope" rule, because I do not have an $$$$ electronic target.
Not having an exception for venues that do NOT have expensive electronic targets, makes no sense to me. That is the kind of behavior where the rule makers live in a bubble, and are NOT talking to the clubs and general members.
It increases the cost of entry.

I used to have a table top spotting scope.

But now I just use an IMAGE Stabilizer Canon IS II 12x36 hand held binocular.

Super easy to pick up 10m target. Just throw into bag, and go everywhere.

But the real advantage is concert, sport, sky, beaches, airplanes, just all around diversion.

GaryN wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 1:33 am Not having an exception for venues that do NOT have expensive electronic targets, makes no sense to me. That is the kind of behavior where the rule makers live in a bubble, and are NOT talking to the clubs and general members.
It increases the cost of entry.

If the range doesn't have electronic targets, it must have target carriers, either manual or mechanical, hence no need for spotting scopes.
It's the minimum equipment needed for a competition. You can't stop the time to go forward to change targets...
Spotting scopes are allowed on the other distances, if there aren't no electronic targets.

The biggest local matches around here shoot 5 shots per paper target, with motorized target carriers. Everyone brings scopes, and ignores the rule.

Gwhite wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:53 am The biggest local matches around here shoot 5 shots per paper target, with motorized target carriers. Everyone brings scopes, and ignores the rule.

That also works...

kowa tsn-4

My older Kowa focuses down to 10 yds. I have the 25X EER eyepiece (extended eye relief) - you do not have to take your glasses off to use nicely.

This is the short story.