TargetTalk

I realise the 604/6004 isn't likely difficult to manage once one gets the hang of it, but some folks just never do. I've read countless times how difficult it is to work the cocking lever of a 46m, how tiring it is. But I shortened mine by several inches as part of my weight reducing plan, and find it's almost too easy. As in I sort of wish they'd gone with a slightly larger cylinder so the same stroke could put closer to 500fps worth of pressure into the thing. Oh well. I've even handed mine to guys at the club to try and watched them struggle; this is back when it had the full lever length and wooden block on the end. Similarly, a lot of people claim the Webley Tempest is a difficult plinker to cock, being an over-lever type which uses the barrel as the lever. I've never found it a problem. Even now, with a bit of tendinitis in my right arm. I suspect the difference mostly comes down to understanding leverage, more than an issue of physical weakness.

Muffo wrote:wow I just looked up the price of a fas 6004, they are just about as expensive as a second had decent pcp.

I wonder if a fas has ever shot a good score?

Quick Overview
The “New Generation” of FAS pistols will continue the legacy of the past, and continue paving the roadway of shooting excellence with Gold, Silver, & Bronze bringing to market the finest competitive pistols available

Hee Hee, according to their ad they have……

Looks decent, anyone know what fps it shoots? Also, since the entire barrel and sights are part of the cocking lever, is there any issues with the cocking pivot point getting sloppy over thousands of shots

Is PCP needed to become a decent competitor, no it's not, but with the reduction in weight, and ease of cocking, and ability to maintain a solid stance it's worth the money to me.

My son could easily load the FAS 604 since he was 11 years old.

I learned to shoot with one too, 30 years ago. Still have one, might just shoot it a bit this week for old times sake! Yes, they are a bit low on velocity but still good for anyone up to the 540 mark in my opinion.

Is PCP needed to become a decent competitor, no it's not, but with the reduction in weight, and ease of cocking, and ability to maintain a solid stance it's worth the money to me.

Rover is possibly best equipped to answer this.

Rover wrote:"Rover's endless rants have a point, if a very limited one. As he says, any decently made SSP (FWB 1xx series, Pardini K58, Baikal 46m, etc.) will allow excellent scores provided the shooter is disciplined and at least a bit talented. But that's the full extent of validity for his point."

Yes, that's all I could possibly desire.

Good for you, but why try to persuade others that they shouldn't also have the pleasure of owning a state-of-the-art top end gun that will need less effort on the firing point.

It would be a sad life if we always bought items that were only adequate.

Muffo wrote: I wonder if a fas has ever shot a good score?

They certainly used to back in the early '80s when they were competing with the FWB 65s and 80s, but that really depends on what you call a "good score".

I remember being surprised at how many were being used at the 1985 Nordic Championships in Finland.

Whether they were quite up to the standard of the FWBs is questionable, but some people found them easier to shoot.

David Levene wrote:

Muffo wrote: I wonder if a fas has ever shot a good score?

They certainly used to back in the early '80s when they were competing with the FWB 65s and 80s, but that really depends on what you call a "good score".

I remember being surprised at how many were being used at the 1985 Nordic Championships in Finland.

Whether they were quite up to the standard of the FWBs is questionable, but some people found them easier to shoot.

I would say a good score is well into the 580s. at that point its fairly clear the pistol isnt limiting the shooters abilities

Muffo wrote:

David Levene wrote:

Muffo wrote: I wonder if a fas has ever shot a good score?

They certainly used to back in the early '80s when they were competing with the FWB 65s and 80s, but that really depends on what you call a "good score".

I would say a good score is well into the 580s. at that point its fairly clear the pistol isnt limiting the shooters abilities

I'm not saying that the 604/6004 couldn't be used to shoot that sort of score, but it would be an extremely good performance by the shooter.

David Levene wrote:

Muffo wrote:

David Levene wrote:

Muffo wrote: I wonder if a fas has ever shot a good score?

They certainly used to back in the early '80s when they were competing with the FWB 65s and 80s, but that really depends on what you call a "good score".

I would say a good score is well into the 580s. at that point its fairly clear the pistol isnt limiting the shooters abilities

I'm not saying that the 604/6004 couldn't be used to shoot that sort of score, but it would be an extremely good performance by the shooter.

Is that doubt I hear?

Im also not saying it couldnt be done but im doubtful. If someone bought a second hand one cheaply its probably good to learn on, however it seems crazy to me to buy a new one when its getting towards the price of a second hand high level pcp that can, has and still does produce world class scores. And there for it definitely isnt going to limit the shooters ability in any way

David Levene wrote:

Muffo wrote:

David Levene wrote:

Muffo wrote: I wonder if a fas has ever shot a good score?

They certainly used to back in the early '80s when they were competing with the FWB 65s and 80s, but that really depends on what you call a "good score".

I would say a good score is well into the 580s. at that point its fairly clear the pistol isnt limiting the shooters abilities

I'm not saying that the 604/6004 couldn't be used to shoot that sort of score, but it would be an extremely good performance by the shooter.

Is that doubt I hear?

Im also not saying it couldnt be done but im doubtful. If someone bought a second hand one cheaply its probably good to learn on, however it seems crazy to me to buy a new one when its getting towards the price of a second hand high level pcp that can, has and still does produce world class scores. And there for it definitely isnt going to limit the shooters ability in any way

David Levene wrote:....but why try to persuade others that they shouldn't also have the pleasure of owning a state-of-the-art top end gun that will need less effort on the firing point......

Maybe because they are getting snookered thinking that buying a PCP _system_ will make them shoot high scores and become a champ? If everyone owned the same techno-marvel, state-of-the-art PCP there would still be the talented top 15%, and other 85% envious wannabes chasing the carrot on a string. The same curve would exist if we all shot Daisy 717s. Airgun manufacturers prefer that you not dwell on that because they won't make nearly as much money building simple SSPs that require no additional operational paraphernalia.

Less effort is not an upgrade. Atrophy is a downgrade.

slofyr wrote:

David Levene wrote:....but why try to persuade others that they shouldn't also have the pleasure of owning a state-of-the-art top end gun that will need less effort on the firing point......

Maybe because they are getting snookered thinking that buying a PCP _system_ will make them shoot high scores and become a champ? If everyone owned the same techno-marvel, state-of-the-art PCP there would still be the talented top 15%, and other 85% envious wannabes chasing the carrot on a string. The same curve would exist if we all shot Daisy 717s. Airgun manufacturers prefer that you not dwell on that because they won't make nearly as much money building simple SSPs that require no additional operational paraphernalia.

Less effort is not an upgrade. Atrophy is a downgrade.

No having a good pistol will not make anyone a good shooter but it will allow them to become one if they put in the effort in the right way.

Less effort is an upgrade. Shooting well is all about doing everything exactly the same every single time. The less steps that are in that process the less errors are made.

slofyr wrote:

David Levene wrote:....but why try to persuade others that they shouldn't also have the pleasure of owning a state-of-the-art top end gun that will need less effort on the firing point......

Maybe because they are getting snookered thinking that buying a PCP _system_ will make them shoot high scores and become a champ?

If anyone told them that then it would obviously be a lie, but that is not a reason why they should not buy one if they want one.

slofyr wrote: Less effort is not an upgrade.

I could not disagree more.

Please elaborate about the "PCP expense and headaches" for someone who hasn't experienced it.

To look at things from a different perspective, while I certainly agree with the opinion that … "it's the shooter not the gun", I can't help but notice that anti PCP preaching rather ironically and all too frequently, brings up the subject of the gun.

One of the things that initially attracted me to 10m AP was the minimalist gear requirement and affordability; no special underwear, pants, jacket, rear sights, hooks to fasten buttons and on & on! You can own a World Class AP for $1750 - $1900 and $5 - $15 for the best pellets,… I'm guessing around $500 for a scuba tank and glasses if you need them? A top tier team issue racing bike will set you back about $12,000..and you're nowhere near done at the cash register with just a bike. Twenty years ago I took a few shots with a friends $3000 pool cue (it's the shooter, not the cue!). Just $1900 for what the Olympic and World champion uses…why not own an LP10 might be a more reasonable question. This is not a good sport for gear heads - buy a great pistol and you're done.

Come on Rover, trade in your Steyr for a FWB65 and you might be a tad more credible. Else, you're buying the same "Kool-Aid" as the rich-toy-buying-lawyers.

I would really be full it if I hadn't "been there, done that". Please note that I've never said the PCPs were no good; only that they were expensive to buy and operate.

Actually, I've owned two FWB 65s and a FWB 90 with which I shot my personal best of 576 (outside) and used while on the team that set a National Record. I've also owned two Pardini k58s, a FWB 100, a Gamo (SSPs), a Walther LP53, and a HW70. I won't go into the varied CO2 guns I've also owned.

I bought an LP1 because I got it with a Pelican case, a SCUBA tank, a manometer, the original box and manual, a large assortment of match pellets, a Nygord pellet sizer, and a pellet box, all for $600 American.

The above price killed my objection to spending a bunch of cash on something that would not do better (and hasn't) than the above guns.

I am not forcing anyone to buy my choices of guns, but I am saying "Good Luck" to your dreams of AP mastery and winning scores using the latest and greatest. It's YOUR money; spend it as you wish, but don't think for a second you'll buy some points.

Your credibility about your assertions on "SSPvsPCP" doesn't lie in being a good shooter, having been on a national team or having owned a bunch of different guns. Sophistry!

We are mostly all aware that the justification of owning stuff you actually object to other people buying is because it was a "deal". Well, that's convenient. Why hang on to a headache-inducing and wallet-emptying machine of the devil when you could simply pump all day and have way more fun?

So the bulk of the argument now, is mostly that PCPs are expensive (but that people should spend their money as they wish).

So what's the point already? Oh yea, "can't buy points!" But can't score points without a pistol either...!

My "assertions" lie in actually having had successful experience with the guns in question.

I don't object to any "stuff," but "assert" that you will most likely NOT shoot any better by spending twice the money.

Prove me wrong. (But you already spent that money, didn't you?)

Rover wrote:I would really be full it if I hadn't "been there, done that". Please note that I've never said the PCPs were no good; only that they were expensive to buy and operate.

Actually, I've owned two FWB 65s and a FWB 90 with which I shot my personal best of 576 (outside) and used while on the team that set a National Record. I've also owned two Pardini k58s, a FWB 100, a Gamo (SSPs), a Walther LP53, and a HW70. I won't go into the varied CO2 guns I've also owned.

I bought an LP1 because I got it with a Pelican case, a SCUBA tank, a manometer, the original box and manual, a large assortment of match pellets, a Nygord pellet sizer, and a pellet box, all for $600 American.

The above price killed my objection to spending a bunch of cash on something that would not do better (and hasn't) than the above guns.

I am not forcing anyone to buy my choices of guns, but I am saying "Good Luck" to your dreams of AP mastery and winning scores using the latest and greatest. It's YOUR money; spend it as you wish, but don't think for a second you'll buy some points.

Maybe if you were using a lp10 or morini your pb would have been 586 instead of 576. I fail to see how a pcp pistol is expensive to run or a headache. I bought my 162ei because the feinwerkbau mod 2 was a headache with co2 related issues.

It cost me 1000 us dollars and I spent 120 on a scuba tank. I have had it 5 years now and it hasnt cost me a cent more and nothing has ever gone wrong. My family has 2 more and they also havent spent a cent on them

"...and I spent 120 on a scuba tank. I have had it 5 years now and it hasnt cost me a cent more and nothing has ever gone wrong. My family has 2 more and they also havent spent a cent on them"

My local dive shop owner is so amused by how little air I use, he tops up my cylinder for free.