Rover wrote:I was under the impression that we had chatted about Reubens record via PM. Again, I may be having a Senior Moment.
I suppose either of those options are within the realm of possibility :)
Rover wrote:
john bickar wrote:
Rover wrote:In the previous National Record (592 with a CO2 gun), I knew the shooter, the referee (both dead now), and the match director.
I thought the previous record was the Reuben Hafter (sp?) record of 589, in ~1989. I'm not familiar with a 592. Who was it with the 592?
John, I was going from memory so you may well be correct on Reuben's record.
Interesting that you have a direct connection with that one. I had never heard of the guy (Reuben Hafter) other than that record, nor had most people that I know, and there have always been mumbles about the legitimacy of the record. I'm definitely interested in more details about it.
Rover wrote:When I started this, I just wondered why I had never heard of the guy. Had you? It turned into kind of an inquisition.
Chris wrote:What is different about archery sights used in the Olympics that enables a person with imperfect vision to perform at a high level?
Would Im Dong-hyun be able to use the same sighting system on an Air Pistol on his bow and equal his Olympic performance?
If open sights on pistols were easy to see when your eyes get old then we would not a red dots being used in conventional pistol as much as they are.
I know some people with really poor vision, who are still great shooters.
I don't think red dots are in such common use for the reasons you think they are. Even many young shooters with very good eye sight prefer a red dot to irons.
A red dot makes it much easier to shoot timed and rapid fire as it is a three point alignment system, eye to dot to target where irons are eye- rear sight- front sight -target.
Most of the high masters I see, shoot slow fire just as well with irons as with a dot, regardless of age.
Red dots are not as affected by lighting changes as irons either. Shots that are dead on at 8 in the morning, can require an 8 click sight adjustment at three in the afternoon on an uncovered outdoor range if you are shooting with irons.
Last edited by Isabel1130 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I had met Rueben at a Masters Camp at the OTC. Years later I moved to Scottsdale where Rueben was from. Don Plante was (and still is) match director. John Doolin was the ref at all Phoenix Rod & Gun registered matches, so I saw him regularly. He told me he was ref at the match at which the record was set by Rueben. I wasn't there.
There was no question that this was a legitimate match, but I was not in attendance.
Some of the conversations I have had with HM's gave me the impression they would still shoot irons if they could see them. The fact is they cannot see the iron sights as well as they have in the past and their scores started to suffer so they switched to a dot.
Rover wrote:I had met Rueben at a Masters Camp at the OTC. Years later I moved to Scottsdale where Rueben was from. Don Plante was (and still is) match director. John Doolin was the ref at all Phoenix Rod & Gun registered matches, so I saw him regularly. He told me he was ref at the match at which the record was set by Rueben. I wasn't there.
There was no question that this was a legitimate match, but I was not in attendance.
That is pretty cool, and about 1,000% more information than I've ever heard or read about that record in the 24 years since it was set.
Chris wrote:Some of the conversations I have had with HM's gave me the impression they would still shoot irons if they could see them. The fact is they cannot see the iron sights as well as they have in the past and their scores started to suffer so they switched to a dot.
I admit that it can be a problem indoors at certain ranges. As we get older our eyes don't seem to pick up definition as much in lower light. Since these shooters cannot always control the lighting conditions where they shoot, it can be much easier to just go with a dot sight, rather than the thousand bucks a year or so that a good opthomologist will charge to keep your prescription set for exactly the right focal length.
The indoor range that I shoot at actually upgraded the lights as a lot of people complained.
I have iron sights glasses that are effectively junk, as my prescription for five years ago, is worthless to me now.
Outdoors on an uncovered firing point, however is not a problem. I can see the sights just fine, with or without glasses.
Chris wrote:Some of the conversations I have had with HM's gave me the impression they would still shoot irons if they could see them. The fact is they cannot see the iron sights as well as they have in the past and their scores started to suffer so they switched to a dot.
I'm somewhere in the middle of the transition now, struggling to get comfortable with the dot (but shooting decent scores at times).
I can still see (and shoot HM scores with) iron sights, at thirty-mumblemumblemumble.
I picked the dot up for winter (outdoor) league and indoor shooting, but have been shooting well so I'm sticking with it as long as things are going well.
There are a lot of factors in play and I'm still trying to figure them all out.
The high scoring shooters are well known in the shooting community. As I said in the first post, why have I (or almost everyone on here) not heard of a shooter of this level of ability?
So, why should I, or anyone else, be concerned that you are unaware of an accomplished pistol shooter?
Apparently, you are not current on the athletes involved in our sport.
Also, you state in your initial post that the shooter set a world record. That's not true. You might like to know a world record can only be set at an international event, i.e. Olympics, World Shooting Championships, Pan American Games, Championship of the Americas, or a World Cup.
I was not at that match but have fired at Dutchess County Pistol Association many times. I know the good Dr. M., but have never known him to shoot scores at that level. AP matches at that club are fired on 4 bull targets, 3 shots per bull on crappy American target paper that is well known for tearing irregular holes. This makes accurate scoring difficult especially when grouping multiple shots in the same proximity. The target line is set on saw horses under a large rigid canopy outdoors. Targets are changed by the shooter by walking downrange between relays. The firing line is a standard indoor/outdoor configuration. Lighting is not well regulated on either the target or the firing line making shooting conditions somewhat of a challenge in the best case scenario.
I was also under the impression that record scores could only be fired on single bull targets. I was also under the impression that records couldn't be set when the course was fired alone... apparently not the case in either instance.
Posted shot totals for each series were: 97 96 100 100 100 100 = 593......that's some mental program he had going that day! Can you imagine shooting at least 40 straight 10's in a row to finish a match!? Strangely enough the DCPA suspended all International Style pistol matches indefinitely just after this momentous event.... It's too bad, it was a great place to shoot.
I was very friendly with "Red". I had talked to him by phone quite a while back inviting him to shoot with us, but had the feeling he wasn't up to par.
I, too, have shot at Duchess County (Bullseye and AP), but have no memory of ever meeting the good Dr.
Actually, I HAVE met most of the top shooters in the country and shoot regularly with a few of them. I didn't say the Dr. shot a World's Record, but that his score tied it, a real surprise to most of us here.
I've shot with Sushil Mehandru several times in AP matches at CRRC in West Windsor NJ. He was shooting mid 580 scores at the time. Needless to say, he won those club matches. He's a very nice, soft spoken guy. I understand he's a kidney surgeon in his spare time.
