Bullet Selecttion - Swaged vs Cast

Kirmdog · Post by **Kirmdog** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:29 pm

bruce em;

Wouldn't 45 Colt Long dies work also? If I remember correctly the 45 Colt dies size to .469 also and one can fire 45 Colt in the 454 Casull same as 38 specials in a 357 magnum.

Is it possible that the 454 Casull size die is bigger than .469?

Kirmdog

oldcaster · Post by **oldcaster** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:47 pm

If I shoot reasonably soft 45 bullets (8bhn or so), they will swage down to .451 typically from the brass resized with a Lee Carbide die after I have sized the bullets to .452. With a soft bullet I get excellent results whether they are sized .451 or .452 and if I use a .451 bullet that is hard (18 or so) the results are still fine. If I use a hard bullet .452 or 3 the results are much worse. I think you can get away with a lot when using soft bullets but when you go hard, you better get the size right. The pistol I am using is an older Les Baer that has been shot a lot with the original barrel. I only played with 500 or so jacketed bullets with no improvement in accuracy over lead and so quit using them. I was completely satisfied with the old Star 185 pure lead swaged hollow point but when they were gone, I had to start experimenting. I figured right at the beginning that since the AMU swore by soft cast bullets in 1965 and the stars were even softer than that it was in my best interest to try same thing. If I had to use commercial bullets in my 45 I would use Dardas .451 over all that I tested. They are hard but apparantly the right size for my Baer and I was quite surprised at the accuracy I got from them because I didn't expect it after trying so many other brands of hard cast. Possibly the big difference was my accidental loading of some of the .451 bullets.

John C · Post by **John C** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:15 am

Isabel1130 wrote: I use the 160g Valiants for the short line and indoors, for my 45 and those are abut six cents a piece.

If I may ask, what load are you using under your Valiants? I am also using these for both long and short line.

Thanks,

-John

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:48 am

John C wrote:
Isabel1130 wrote: I use the 160g Valiants for the short line and indoors, for my 45 and those are abut six cents a piece.
If I may ask, what load are you using under your Valiants? I am also using these for both long and short line.

Thanks,

-John

John, I am using 3.5 of Bullseye or 3.7 of Clays, but I doubt if this load will work well at the 50 yard line, or function your gun if you have a slide mounted dot.
If you are shooting a frame mounted dot, or iron sights, with a 13 pound spring, you will probably get good functioning. As it has been stated on these boards before, a frame mounted dot allows you to use lighter loads, and still get good functioning. Dave Salyer told me 4.4 of Bullseye would be a good load for the 50 yard line with the Valiants, but I am much happier with the recoil impulse of 4.3 g of Titegroup, and I think the Zero 185g SLHP are just better more uniform bullets.

Trooperjake · Post by **Trooperjake** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:27 am

John
I use the Quality brand 160's for the short line.
Bullseye at 3.5 will not work the slide as Isabel expects.
With a 11 lb recoil spring and a slide mount, I use 3.9 grains,
Still feels like a lite load.

John C · Post by **John C** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:41 am

Thanks, gentlemen, for the replies.

I, too, am using 3.5 gr of Bullseye under the 160 gr Valiants. I've had great functioning in my Pardini GT45. I'm shooting iron sights, so no issue there with the extra weight of a slide mounted dot.

I'm still trying to dial this load in for 50 yards, so I'll try 4.4 gr of Bullseye, since that's what I have.

I'm going to buy some Zero 185 JHPs, once they come back into stock. Those things are hard to find!

-John

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:54 am

John C wrote:Thanks, gentlemen, for the replies.

I, too, am using 3.5 gr of Bullseye under the 160 gr Valiants. I've had great functioning in my Pardini GT45. I'm shooting iron sights, so no issue there with the extra weight of a slide mounted dot.

I'm still trying to dial this load in for 50 yards, so I'll try 4.4 gr of Bullseye, since that's what I have.

I'm going to buy some Zero 185 JHPs, once they come back into stock. Those things are hard to find!

-John

Are you trying to buy them directly from Roze Distribution or a third party?
I used them for a while, but went to lead because I did not want to get into cleaning issues between matches.
I suggest calling Roze, and getting on their back order list rather than just hoping to catch them in stock on line.

GunRunner · Post by **GunRunner** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:28 am

The Vallant 160s due best at 4.5 of bullseye in our testing at 50 yards, and even better if you weigh them and group into 163.-164. grains. If you measure the vallants they are .451, not the .452 they are marked on the box. Quality cast 160s are .452 and of superior quality than the vallants and due better at 50 yards without the need to weigh each one.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:56 am

GunRunner wrote:The Vallant 160s due best at 4.5 of bullseye in our testing at 50 yards, and even better if you weigh them and group into 163.-164. grains. If you measure the vallants they are .451, not the .452 they are marked on the box. Quality cast 160s are .452 and of superior quality than the vallants and due better at 50 yards without the need to weigh each one.

I believe this, and the Quality Cast are very pretty bullets, but I have been told (this is not first hand experience) that they have a much higher tin content than the Valiants, and will cause leading in many guns. If they work well for you, great.

I think Oldcaster had a very valuable post regarding leading, and after reading that, in my mind, it is at least possible that the Valiants may be better regarding leading issues because they are slightly smaller.

I have no loyalty to one bullet over another. I think that weighing bullets in order to reassure myself that I have accuracy at the 50 yard line is WAY more trouble, than just using a better swaged bullet at the long line.
I don't shoot because I love to reload. I reload because I love to shoot, and I will take the easiest less stressful route to reloading that I can find. If I win the lottery, I will be on the phone to Roze distribution for a standing order so fast your head will spin. :-)

oldcaster · Post by **oldcaster** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:16 pm

Isabel,

Send me a PM and give me your address and I will send you about 500 of my cast Saeco 069 bullets that I mold. I will bet that you get superior accuracy and 0 leading out of them. Don't worry about the cost, all I need is your address.

The worst that can happen out of this is you will want to start casting your own out of necessity. The best, is they will shoot horribly so you can keep buying them from Roze.

GunRunner · Post by **GunRunner** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:37 am

I have had no leading issues with the quality cast or the vallants.

john bickar · Post by **john bickar** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:11 pm

Isabel1130 wrote:I believe this, and the Quality Cast are very pretty bullets, but I have been told (this is not first hand experience) that they have a much higher tin content than the Valiants, and will cause leading in many guns.

Quality Cast are 92% lead, 6% antimony, and 2%tin. I have been shooting them for 10(?) years and they don't lead in my guns.

I load the 200s at the long line at about 750fps, and the 160s at the short line at about 820fps.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:34 pm

john bickar wrote:
Isabel1130 wrote:I believe this, and the Quality Cast are very pretty bullets, but I have been told (this is not first hand experience) that they have a much higher tin content than the Valiants, and will cause leading in many guns.
Quality Cast are 92% lead, 6% antimony, and 2%tin. I have been shooting them for 10(?) years and they don't lead in my guns.

I load the 200s at the long line at about 750fps, and the 160s at the short line at about 820fps.

Good to know. I will pick some up at Canton and try them. If they have better lube than the Valiants (I hate the lube on the Valiants) I am sure they will be well worth the money.

John, what are you using for powder to push the 160g bullets to 820?

john bickar · Post by **john bickar** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:13 am

Isabel1130 wrote:John, what are you using for powder to push the 160g bullets to 820?

452AA

Good luck finding that! :)

In the interest of full disclosure, the guys behind Quality Cast (the gregarious [Distinguished!] redhead and the "silent" partner) are good friends of mine, and I run their website.

So I am not entirely an unbiased observer, but I do shoot those bullets to the tune of ~2630.

Your results may vary.

Don't Panic.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:27 am

I am going to have to chrono my Valiants this spring and see how fast thy are going. I would suspect slowerr than 820. Maybe at Canton this year they were going that fast. It was pretty hot. :-)

GunRunner · Post by **GunRunner** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:53 am

Isabel1130 wrote:
john bickar wrote:
Isabel1130 wrote:I believe this, and the Quality Cast are very pretty bullets, but I have been told (this is not first hand experience) that they have a much higher tin content than the Valiants, and will cause leading in many guns.
Quality Cast are 92% lead, 6% antimony, and 2%tin. I have been shooting them for 10(?) years and they don't lead in my guns.

I load the 200s at the long line at about 750fps, and the 160s at the short line at about 820fps.
Good to know. I will pick some up at Canton and try them. If they have better lube than the Valiants (I hate the lube on the Valiants) I am sure they will be well worth the money.

John, what are you using for powder to push the 160g bullets to 820?

The lube is of the same type other than being blue than vallants red, i have noticed in the last boxes ive got they have less lube, some even have bare spots which i dont like. why wait, call Bob and he will send you some samples to try, he is a super nice person to deal with.

GunRunner · Post by **GunRunner** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:55 am

john bickar wrote:
Isabel1130 wrote:John, what are you using for powder to push the 160g bullets to 820?
452AA

Good luck finding that! :)

In the interest of full disclosure, the guys behind Quality Cast (the gregarious [Distinguished!] redhead and the "silent" partner) are good friends of mine, and I run their website.

So I am not entirely an unbiased observer, but I do shoot those bullets to the tune of ~2630.

Your results may vary.

Don't Panic.

great score! Which of them do you shoot, and what load do you use if you dont mind sharing.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:07 pm

GunRunner wrote:
Isabel1130 wrote:
john bickar wrote:
Isabel1130 wrote:I believe this, and the Quality Cast are very pretty bullets, but I have been told (this is not first hand experience) that they have a much higher tin content than the Valiants, and will cause leading in many guns.
Quality Cast are 92% lead, 6% antimony, and 2%tin. I have been shooting them for 10(?) years and they don't lead in my guns.

I load the 200s at the long line at about 750fps, and the 160s at the short line at about 820fps.

Good to know. I will pick some up at Canton and try them. If they have better lube than the Valiants (I hate the lube on the Valiants) I am sure they will be well worth the money.

John, what are you using for powder to push the 160g bullets to 820?
The lube is of the same type other than being blue than vallants red, i have noticed in the last boxes ive got they have less lube, some even have bare spots which i dont like. why wait, call Bob and he will send you some samples to try, he is a super nice person to deal with.

I would do that Gunrunner, except I only do load testing in the fall. I change nothing on my press, or my guns starting five months before Perry, so I might as well wait until I am at the Canton regional (which is named after John's dad, Frank Bickar) to pick up some bullets.