TargetTalk

Spencer wrote:

nc513 wrote:...The 2013 organizers might choose to use a different strategy, I suppose.

take a look at http://www.issf-sports.org/getfile.aspx ... ntrols.pdf

I couldn't open that, but there's nothing in this one that mentions anything about cylinders:

http://www.issf-sports.org/getfile.aspx ... tol_Equipm Control_2011.pdf

Anyway, a Nations National Champs is not an ISSF sanctioned event. That Nation is free to disregard any rule that it wants. We do, and so do you there in Aus.

Therefore the Finnish National body could, if it chose to, ignore the cylinder age thing (or anything else) if it wants to. There is no compulsion.

the file ...Equipment_and_Clothing_Controls.pdf (on setting up and operating rifle/pistol EC) has a fair bit on cylinders

Well, I'm a 2nd person who can't get the link to open and can't find that same-name file on the ISSF page.

Just clicked on it and that link works for me - it's a biggish file and takes a while to open, even on ADSL.
#16 at http://www.issf-sports.org/organizers/d ... enter.ashx

The first link was dead, though the 2nd works. Problem is that I don't agree that 1 slide pointing out where the information is located/what it looks like on a Workshop packet a) is "a fair bit" or b) has anything to do with the total lack of information in the Rules.

Yes, the second link works for me too.

But, like Brian, I only see some "workshop" presentation.

Spencer, please direct us to the actual ISSF rule.

And, once again, I'll point out that the ISSF don't run our respective National championships, so any ISSF rules (if such a rule actually exists) can be ignored if that's what the National body decides.

By the way, after looking through that workshop presentation, I wonder why anyone would want to be an ISSF rifle shooter! Thank god pistol is slightly simpler.

6.2.2.8 It is the shooter‟s responsibility that any air or Co2 cylinder has been certified as safe and is still within the validity date.

Spencer wrote:6.2.2.8 It is the shooter‟s responsibility that any air or Co2 cylinder has been certified as safe and is still within the validity date.

Sorry to labor the point, but what do they mean by "shooters responsibility"?

To me that doesn't really mean much as far as equipment control is concerned.

j-team wrote:

Spencer wrote:6.2.2.8 It is the shooter‟s responsibility that any air or Co2 cylinder has been certified as safe and is still within the validity date.

Sorry to labor the point, but what do they mean by "shooters responsibility"?

To me that doesn't really mean much as far as equipment control is concerned.

I may not be the smartest shooter or know the rules like my friend Spencer, but to me it is very clear that its the shooters responsibility to ensure that your cylinder is valid and not expired.

Which to this poor dumb shooter, means that rule 6.2.2.8 would prohibit any pistol where a validity date on the cylinder has passed the current date... or am I wrong?

As for equipment control, obviously it is patr of the role to verify cylinder expirations dates before allowing a gun through gun check.

Cheers
Brad

brakarzac wrote: ...to me it is very clear that its the shooters responsibility to ensure that your cylinder is valid and not expired.

So, with me being a bit of an irresponsible kind of guy, I don't need to bother?

My point being, if that's what they want, why not just put it in the rules properly. Get rid of the "shooters responsibility" and use the word "must".

e.g. "Any air or Co2 cylinder must be certified as safe and still within the validity date".

And, put that bit in the Equipment and Ammunition section of the rules (7.4... for rifle and 8.4... for pistol).

j-team wrote:

brakarzac wrote: ...to me it is very clear that its the shooters responsibility to ensure that your cylinder is valid and not expired.

So, with me being a bit of an irresponsible kind of guy, I don't need to bother?

I think the point is that it's your responsibility ergo your fault if you have an out of date cylinder and are failed at EQ because of it.

Where it goes in the rules is a moot point. Before it was specified it was covered under the general safety rules, which I believe was what Germany used initially a few years ago.

Rob.

The way that I see it is, if your air cylinder has a test date on it, then the ten year rule will apply. If however your cylinder got through the system without a test date on it, for whatever reason, you as the shooter would be unable to prove conclusively when the cylinder was manufactured or tested. Therefore EC would have to presume that your cylinder was manufactured before the requirement of adding a test date.
As most cylinders manufactured post 1998 have had the test date appended, EC would be quite right in their judgement that your cylinder is more than 10 years old.
Simple solution, do the same as the rest of us, buy or borrow a cylinder that has a current test date appended and remove the unnecessary stress that could happen if your equipment fails at EC.

John Marchant wrote:Simple solution, do the same as the rest of us, buy or borrow a cylinder that has a current test date appended and remove the unnecessary stress that could happen if your equipment fails at EC.

Yes, that's what I'll do, if I ever decide to use the CM162EI in a competition again. Unfortunately, a cylinder costs around 180 EUR here in Finland and I really consider that rather expensive. Maybe ordering from abroad would be the way to go...?

other companies can provide new cylinder with reduced cost like Prelutec
http://www.prelutec.de/produkte/luftpis ... anschluss/
in their case they also install new cylinders to older 162 that do not have removable air tanks (but the 162 has to be sent to their shop). Gehmann in germany also installs new cylinder to older 162 (like the previous owner of my 162 did).

EU countries have the PED Pressure Equipment Directive that includes small cylinders at low pressure. It adds a lot of product cost and regulation oversight.

The safety problem will come from aluminum cylinders that have been filled from hand pumps. This is due to the presence of moisture that doesn't occur in Scuba air.

CO2, unless contaminated, won't have the problem and is a much lower pressure but this baby too will be thrown out with the bathwater

too bad

Maybe if the Euro fails, we lose all these directives?

Bruce Martindale wrote:Maybe if the Euro fails, we lose all these directives?

Don't mix up the EU with the Euro.

27 members of the former, 17 members of the latter.

Maybe out of the goodness of their heart, the manufacturers would dispense "loaners" at the major matches.

Or....someone would step up and tell the match organizers to snap out of their cheap shit (as we used to say in the Marines).

Not to hijack the thread but assuming SCUBA tanks are pressure tested using water, should we be concerned about any residual moisture left in the tank which then ends up in our AP cylinders and guns?

They are pressure tested IN water to cool them, the same as when you have one filled. The test is done with air.

Rover:

Are you sure about that? Pressure testing is done with water because water is incompressible. If the tank fails with water in it, it just leaks all over the place, but a failure at 3000 psi with air is an explosion. Have a look here:

http://www.deep-six.com/page37.htm

Any residual water is removed by a drying process that is part of the whole pressure testing process.

Roger