What Kind of .45 Brass to Get?

[Jerry Keefer]

. but I am not here to post pictures and claims to best anyone or any business..In other words, you can't do it. -- Bill --

Thought this discussion might center around the technical merits of precision machining as it relates to accuracy..hmmmm

[oldcaster]

Jerry, You know all of the people here with experience belive you. No explanation of what the load was, what kind of bullet, and what kind of gun. Quick---- go make something up. I am not buying it. -- Bill --

[Jerry Keefer]

[quote="oldcaster"]Jerry, You know all of the people here with experience belive you. No explanation of what the load was, what kind of bullet, and what kind of gun. [b]Quick---- go make something up. I am not buying it. --[/b] Bill --[/quote
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I am a devotee to Penn Bullets. Bob Palermo produces a great product, and is a great person.. The gun is a Caspian frame/slide/Kart barrel/slide mounted optics, and made it well into the top ten at Perry this year.
Generally, a select charge of Clays, is the preferred load. Each gun has its charge preference.
There are many other smiths who do as well. Check Joe Chambers some time.. We can show you all the groups you want. Now, I entered this discussion to advise the OP that precision chamber work is productive, and that head spacing on the extractor or projectile is not the best way to get max accuracy at 50 yards. How do I know that?? From investing countless hours of decades of work, huge sums of $, experimentation, testing, and sharing and comparing information with my peers. I actually don't know if you are kidding or not, with the remark " Quick, make something up", but I suspect you are serious about challenging my integrity. So with that said, this is the last conversation you and I will have..
Jerry

[Rover]

I don't doubt for a second that Jerry Keefer is correct, BUT...

This would require that all brass (1000s?) be trimmed to the length of the shortest pieces. Then a new barrel would be required to correctly headspace on this case length.

While my suggestion that one should headspace on the bullet may not be the BEST solution, it is much more likely to be applied than the above.

After all, the guy just wanted to know what brass to buy.

[GunRunner]

Just buy good brass and sort by maker, if you have a bad piece or two pitch it and go on, no one trims 45 brass. If your looking for ransom tests to be impressive then do everything you can. The truth is a quality wad gun with quality loaded ammo will shoot better than the ability of 99% of us shooters.

[oldcaster]

What brass to buy is exactly what this is all about, and the answer is it doesn't matter.

It is easy to pick one 10 shot group out of hundreds and show it off without showing the same load and gun with a larger group, in other words average plus if the gun continually shoots good with special brass, how is it known what it would do with mixed brass.

There have been many in my bullseye group including me that have tried different brass and sorting it by brand and went back to not worrying about it and concentrating on shooting principles instead.

Go measure some Federal Gold Medal once fired brass and be surprised how much they vary. Another thing that happens is that each time straight wall brass is sized it changes and it is sometimes longer (10%)and by far most times shorter, which would mean that you can only shoot the brass one time except for the few that got longer which would have to then be trimmed.

If you don't headspace on the bullet which is why everyone taper crimps you must shoot the brass only once and possibly it will be too short for the first time.

[trulyapostolic]

I think you all are being very foolish to ignore the free advice and guidance offered by Mr. Keefer.

Jerry, thank you for sharing as you have also done on several other forums.

[Isabel1130]

For my 50 yard loads, I use new brass. Starline, because I figure if it is good enough for the AMU, it is probably better than good enough for me. If you do the math, you can shoot 20 outdoor matches a year shooting a 45 for both Centerfire, and 45, and only use 1200 new cases. I actually end up shooting only 12 outdoor long line matches a year, so I go through 720 new cases a year. I have a new 1911 9mm coming next week so half that new brass will be 9mm which is a bit cheaper. After I have once fired brass, I rotate it into my stock for short line loads, and then reload until the case cracks.

I think gunsmiths like Mr Keefer, Mr Derr, and Mr Sams should be obsessed about accuracy. That is their job, and one they do very well. I am happy that they do the worrying, so I don't have to. When I trust my gun, and I trust my loads, I find it much easier to work on the nut behind the trigger. :-)

[Jerry Keefer]

For my 50 yard loads, I use new brass. Starline, because I figure if it is good enough for the AMU, it is probably better than good enough for me. If you do the math, you can shoot 20 outdoor matches a year shooting a 45 for both Centerfire, and 45, and only use 1200 new cases. I actually end up shooting only 12 outdoor long line matches a year, so I go through 720 new cases a year. I have a new 1911 9mm coming next week so half that new brass will be 9mm which is a bit cheaper. After I have once fired brass, I rotate it into my stock for short line loads, and then reload until the case cracks.

I think gunsmiths like Mr Keefer, Mr Derr, and Mr Sams should be obsessed about accuracy. That is their job, and one they do very well. I am happy that they do the worrying, so I don't have to. When I trust my gun, and I trust my loads, I find it much easier to work on the nut behind the trigger. :-)

Hello Isabel;
Thank you for that math analogy.. :) Because the 2700 is a matter of math and percentages..for each gun/stage... But, I really want to point out the reason for our obsession, which many fail to consider. First, the top shooters demand it..they know, it's a matter of math, and that the human body cannot perform at a peak level thru out the entire 2700. We tire, and make errors. At the beginning of the match, many/most are holding and breaking the shot in the
ten / x ring area. But, as the match progresses, both mental and physical fatigue results, in shots breaking near or outside the ten ring area.. The tighter the gun shoots, the more mitigating these errors are going to be. At the top of this game, it's a matter of accumulating the least amount negative errors. A gun that groups one inch, will always out score a two inch gun..even in the hands of a tyro...
Take care
I'll see Dave in a day or two, and tell him I spoke with you..
Jerry

[trulyapostolic]

To the OP, I also shoot Starline brass exclusively outdoors. I bought it in preparation for the wad gun that will be coming this year, from one of the men that Jerry listed, knowing that the chamber will be cut correctly. I purchased my brass at 1 time so I'd be sure it was produced in the same lot. You can backorder with Starline and they'll ship brass as soon as it's produced.

[Isabel1130]

For my 50 yard loads, I use new brass. Starline, because I figure if it is good enough for the AMU, it is probably better than good enough for me. If you do the math, you can shoot 20 outdoor matches a year shooting a 45 for both Centerfire, and 45, and only use 1200 new cases. I actually end up shooting only 12 outdoor long line matches a year, so I go through 720 new cases a year. I have a new 1911 9mm coming next week so half that new brass will be 9mm which is a bit cheaper. After I have once fired brass, I rotate it into my stock for short line loads, and then reload until the case cracks.

I think gunsmiths like Mr Keefer, Mr Derr, and Mr Sams should be obsessed about accuracy. That is their job, and one they do very well. I am happy that they do the worrying, so I don't have to. When I trust my gun, and I trust my loads, I find it much easier to work on the nut behind the trigger. :-)

Hello Isabel;
Thank you for that math analogy.. :) Because the 2700 is a matter of math and percentages..for each gun/stage... But, I really want to point out the reason for our obsession, which many fail to consider. First, the top shooters demand it..they know, it's a matter of math, and that the human body cannot perform at a peak level thru out the entire 2700. We tire, and make errors. At the beginning of the match, many/most are holding and breaking the shot in the
ten / x ring area. But, as the match progresses, both mental and physical fatigue results, in shots breaking near or outside the ten ring area.. The tighter the gun shoots, the more mitigating these errors are going to be. At the top of this game, it's a matter of accumulating the least amount negative errors. A gun that groups one inch, will always out score a two inch gun..even in the hands of a tyro...
Take care
I'll see Dave in a day or two, and tell him I spoke with you..
Jerry

Mr Sams just took all of my tax refund (again) for my new 1911 9mm. I talked to him yesterday. I guess I had better go down to the reloading room and count my brass. All this "executive order" stuff is making me nervous.

[schatzperson]

I hope I did not re-start any friction when I re-vived this older thread.

Rover, the " seat 45 acp cases only on the mouth" advice was given to me by a few guys I know and subsequently read it also on other forums.

However from my little experience I just wondered if perhaps the cases are held only by the extractor in fully battery. If I pick up most of my once fired range brass, they are almost all too short !
To make matters worse I was advised that correcting this by headspacing on bullet might raise pressure (?).
This thread indicates that this might not be so.

I am glad I ask in these parts, I learn every time.
Right now I am struggling with 45 acp pistolcraft, be it reloading, the gun itself and that damned 3.5 lb trigger.

Please people be nice to each other. Few things in life warrant raising gall and highwater. Life can be bad mean to us naturally enough by itself.
This is after all Shooting Craft and not a triple bypass.

[Isabel1130]

I hope I did not re-start any friction when I re-vived this older thread.

Rover, the " seat 45 acp cases only on the mouth" advice was given to me by a few guys I know and subsequently read it also on other forums.

However from my little experience I just wondered if perhaps the cases are held only by the extractor in fully battery. If I pick up most of my once fired range brass, they are almost all too short !
To make matters worse I was advised that correcting this by headspacing on bullet might raise pressure (?).
This thread indicates that this might not be so.

I am glad I ask in these parts, I learn every time.
Right now I am struggling with 45 acp pistolcraft, be it reloading, the gun itself and that damned 3.5 lb trigger.

Please people be nice to each other. Few things in life warrant raising gall and highwater. Life can be bad mean to us naturally enough by itself.
This is after all Shooting Craft and not a triple bypass.

Yes, the deeper the bullet is seated, the higher the pressure is going to be, and this may affect your accuracy a little, but in my experience the light target load charges we use are no where near the max pressure that a 45 case is designed for. I would worry very little about this as a safety issue. If you are going to start shooting competition slow fire at the 50 yard line, then sandbag or ransom rest your loads, and decide if first, your gun, and then your rounds are adequate. Unfortunately, at the fifty yard line, often both are an issue if you are looking for x ring accuracy.

I also don't understand your concern about the case only being held by the extractor when the gun is in full battery? Am I missing something here? I thought, in a decent 45 (maybe not a glock) that the only part of the case unsupported by the barrel, is the rim, which the extractor grabs to help eject the empty case correctly.

I know for a fact that a Hammerli will function without an extractor, the brass just doesn't always clear the chamber correctly.

[schatzperson]

Isabel, my concern is just my re-loading inexperience and caution, plus I was read some well meaning BS on another forum.
I thought that before anything I will ask, and now I know a little more.

I just had a quick look at my Pardini 45,and its like you say... there is ample chamber support.
I also note that in this same pistol, a FMJ Fiocchi 200 grain SWC seated such that there is about .0485" between case rim and SWC shoulder, the case will seat on the chamber mouth almost flush.
This would suggest that there will be very little support on the extractor ( tolerances ).

Re the hammerli that you mention : most blowbacks will work with no extarctor.

I hope you all bear with me here guys. Not only am I a beginner to Bullseye 45. Living as I do cuttoff from mainland stuff is challenging enough.
I thank you all for your patience.

[oldcaster]

No matter what length your brass is, there is always the same room for the powder because the bullet is seated in relationship with the back of the brass and not the length of the brass. I think you could shoot 45's with too much headspace because the extractor will hold the brass strong enough to fire and you would never know it other than it likely wouldn't be accurate.

I don't have any starline brass but it would be interesting if someone would measure a few hundred new ones and see what they come up with. I had 500 new Lapua 32 long brass and surprisingly the lengths varied about .010.

[Rover]

Good response, Schatzie!

It is true that headspacing on the bullet may raise pressure, but target loads are so mild that this is an advantage rather than a problem.

You found out for yourself that the cases are always too short, no matter the chambering depth. Good on ya!

Some guys are happy with headspacing on the extractor, but I'm not. Do as you please, but base your opinions on personal testing, not internet BS.

[Jerry Keefer]

I hope you all bear with me here guys. Not only am I a beginner to Bullseye 45. Living as I do cuttoff from mainland stuff is challenging enough.
I thank you all for your patience.

Schatz;
If your barrel has not been set up initially for minimum headspace, you will need to experiment, and adapt. In other words, if your chamber is .910, the only way to minimum headspace is make your own brass, which of course is not practical. There is nothing available near that length.
On the other hand, when setting up a new barrel, the chamber can be cut to .898 or .900 and if the brass is .895 - .897, which many batches of Starline are, you have a very good workable headspace compared to a guesstimate as many guns are. When shooting short line, the accuracy requirement is much less, any good brass like Federal, Rem. or Winchester will work just fine . The test gauge is adjusted to zero @.898 and makes checking a large quantity of brass less painless.