TargetTalk

Two eyes is 2 times as good as one eye

Yes, Sir...

and the bonus is 3D

No, Sir... that 3D thing is done at the visual cortex level. Both your eyes can be in top shape, ocular nerves may be doing great, but you may not have developed the right brain connections to "see in 3D". I cannot explain this very well since I don't know what I'm missing... all I know is I cannot se any "3D tricks". Other than that my life is normal. Maybe I have some difficulty catching flying objects like a ball. I know there's many degrees between a fully --stereo-- 3D vision and a totally monocular vision--the brain rejects the input from one eye--, maybe that's why I only miss those "3D tricks" like the movies. This condition affects like 3% of individuals in the US.

OK, maybe I'm missing something but what has 2D/3D got to do with shooting pistol.

I am not interested in depth, all I want to see is the perfect sight alignment sitting in the area of the target I have chosen. All of the information I want is on the X or Y axes i.e. 2D.

OK, maybe I'm missing something but what has 2D/3D got to do with shooting pistol.

I am not interested in depth, all I want to see is the perfect sight alignment sitting in the area of the target I have chosen. All of the information I want is on the X or Y axes i.e. 2D.

KISS

Ok, forget about the hows and the whys of 2/D 3/D stuff

The original post is about shooting with one or both eyes open

You makes your choice that works best for you



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I knew this was going to be a hornet's nest, so I've stayed away so far.
I guess the main advantage of two eyes is improved body balance.
If your arm has to compensate for a swaying body, you'll lose points.
So I guess it's a matter of whether the use of one or two eyes affects your ability to stand still, and we may find personal variations here.
Most people will find it harder to stand steady with their eyes closed, and a common test is standing on one leg to make the difference obvious.

With regard to seing the siht picture, I guess everybody has to find out for themselves, and experiments with occluders, glasses etc. should be encouraged to find out what works best.

Personally I shoot with both eyes open, being strongly right dominant and with impaired left eye vision, but I'm not 100% sure that this is smart.
I notice things happening to my focus etc. when keeping my left eye closed, so I'll continue to be open minded about this.

In general I've decided to be able to perform with as few gadgets as possible, they are all possible sources of trouble and error. The guy who's normally next to me at the club shooting line, never fails to complain that he has left his newer and better glasses at home!

I guess the main advantage of two eyes is improved body balance.

good point, just another reason to shoot with both eyes open

There shouldn't be anything between your eyes and the pistol/sights, not an occluder , nothing. The exception of course are safety/corrective glasses.

You don't go through your daily routines with one eye closed, or drive your car wearing an occluder or wear an eye patch to watch a baseball game. So, why would you use one eye to shoot a pistol when you normally use both eyes to see everything else in the world.


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RB6 wrote:You don't go through your daily routines with one eye closed, or drive your car wearing an occluder or wear an eye patch to watch a baseball game.

Maybe not, but those activities don't really compare to what we are trying to achieve. Many people close one eye when they are trying to work on something requiring fine adjustment or accuracy.

RB6 wrote:

I guess the main advantage of two eyes is improved body balance.

good point, just another reason to shoot with both eyes open

There shouldn't be anything between your eyes and the pistol/sights, not an occluder , nothing. The exception of course are safety/corrective glasses.

You don't go through your daily routines with one eye closed, or drive your car wearing an occluder or wear an eye patch to watch a baseball game. So, why would you use one eye to shoot a pistol when you normally use both eyes to see everything else in the world.


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Pistol shooting involves a totally a different set of skills, different mechanics and most importantly different optics than everything else you mention. Simply put two eyes open = 2 different sight pictures. Your brain must therefore work out which is the right one and 'waste' processing power on discarding the other set of data. Yes you can shoot well with both eyes open, but it's a skill that has to be trained and learned and certainly doesn't work for all (or even most) shooters.

Rob.

Maybe not, but those activities don't really compare to what we are trying to achieve. Many people close one eye when they are trying to work on something requiring fine adjustment or accuracy.

That's because they percieve that it's better or there is improvement closing one eye

But then, 90 % of perception is 10 % of reality

Your brain must therefore work out which is the right one and 'waste' processing power on discarding the other set of data.

Almost, but in fact the brain doesn't have to do what you suggest, it is already done by the master eye. The primary image is from the master eye and the secondary image simply supports the primary. The brain doesn't have to discard anything. The end result is a better image if both eyes are able to focus on the front sight . The image is better because there is more information sent to the brain from two eyes as opposed to one

Try this........ in a semi darkened room with light colored walls look at the wall with both eyes open, then close one eye . The wall is brighter with both eyes open . Twice as much information going to the brain. Same thing happens with the front sight, with both eyes open, the sight is brighter, and has more contrast. In other words an improved sight picture. While both eyes are focused on the front sight the the primary image that comes from the master eye is the predominant image and the secondary image from the supporting eye gives a higher contrast, more resolution , a brighter sight picture. That is why both eyes should focus on the front sight .

Hey it's training, to do this, eventually it becomes second nature. Any time i see a video of the finalists of air or free, both eyes are open . They have the advantage, by embracing the task of training with both eyes. Nobody says that it is easy, but it can be done



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RB6 wrote:

Maybe not, but those activities don't really compare to what we are trying to achieve. Many people close one eye when they are trying to work on something requiring fine adjustment or accuracy.

That's because they percieve that it's better or there is improvement closing one eye

But then, 90 % of perception is 10 % of reality

Your brain must therefore work out which is the right one and 'waste' processing power on discarding the other set of data.

Almost, but in fact the brain doesn't have to do what you suggest, it is already done by the master eye. The primary image is from the master eye and the secondary image simply supports the primary. The brain doesn't have to discard anything. The end result is a better image if both eyes are able to focus on the front sight . The image is better because there is more information sent to the brain from two eyes as opposed to one

Try this........ in a semi darkened room with light colored walls look at the wall with both eyes open, then close one eye . The wall is brighter with both eyes open . Twice as much information going to the brain. Same thing happens with the front sight, with both eyes open, the sight is brighter, and has more contrast. In other words an improved sight picture. While both eyes are focused on the front sight the the primary image that comes from the master eye is the predominant image and the secondary image from the supporting eye gives a higher contrast, more resolution , a brighter sight picture. That is why both eyes should focus on the front sight .

Hey it's training, to do this, eventually it becomes second nature. Any time i see a video of the finalists of air or free, both eyes are open . They have the advantage, by embracing the task of training with both eyes. Nobody says that it is easy, but it can be done



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If both eyes see the front sight the one not aligned with the sighting axis will have a parallax error.

Having both eyes open while shooting pistol does not work for me. I am far sighted and use a corrective lens to bring the front sight into focus. When I flip up my occluder my left eye shifts focus to the target. With the occluder in place my right eye stays focused on the front sight. A frosted occluder allows light to enter my left eye without any distacting visual information.



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RB6 wrote:That's because they percieve that it's better or there is improvement closing one eye

But then, 90 % of perception is 10 % of reality

And your justification for that sweeping statement is what?

RB6 wrote: Nobody says that it is easy, but it can be done

Not always. Your statement assumes that everybody is the same and/or there is only one "correct" way of looking at the sights. Neither assumption is correct.

Tzed250 wrote:...Having both eyes open while shooting pistol does not work for me. I am far sighted and use a corrective lens to bring the front sight into focus. When I flip up my occluder my left eye shifts focus to the target. With the occluder in place my right eye stays focused on the front sight. A frosted occluder allows light to enter my left eye without any distacting visual information.

if you are using the occluder to prevent the 'image problem', how can you claim to not have both eyes open [unless you are closing the aiming eye :) ]?

RB6 wrote: The primary image is from the master eye and the secondary image simply supports the primary. The brain doesn't have to discard anything. The end result is a better image if both eyes are able to focus on the front sight . The image is better because there is more information sent to the brain from two eyes as opposed to one
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Im sorry but the above is wrong. Because you're looking at aligning two objects at short distance, only one eye can be doing that. Look at the sights and close one eye, then switch to the other eye. The sight picture obtained through one eye is in line, the other will not be in line. You must therefore discard one image and not re-inforce the first as you suggest.

Some shooters do shoot with both eyes open and no blinder, but most do not. It is certainly better to coach new shooters to use a blinder, and if at a later stage, they want to try both eyes open, then let them do so and try it out over a few training sessions to see if it really heps them.

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote:

RB6 wrote: The primary image is from the master eye and the secondary image simply supports the primary. The brain doesn't have to discard anything. The end result is a better image if both eyes are able to focus on the front sight . The image is better because there is more information sent to the brain from two eyes as opposed to one
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Im sorry but the above is wrong. Because you're looking at aligning two objects at short distance, only one eye can be doing that. Look at the sights and close one eye, then switch to the other eye. The sight picture obtained through one eye is in line, the other will not be in line. You must therefore discard one image and not re-inforce the first as you suggest.

Some shooters do shoot with both eyes open and no blinder, but most do not. It is certainly better to coach new shooters to use a blinder, and if at a later stage, they want to try both eyes open, then let them do so and try it out over a few training sessions to see if it really heps them.

Rob.

if both eyes are focussed on, and at the front sight it's a bummer to shoot on the wrong target - if you are REALLY focussing a the front sight distance it is easy to do so.

That's because they percieve that it's better or there is improvement closing one eye

But then, 90 % of perception is 10 % of reality


And your justification for that sweeping statement is what?

Do you mean perception ....... this is my definition , "You can twist perception, but reality won't budge" . Perception is how we look at the world through our karma, identity, upbringing, psychology, personality. Reality is the way it is.


The original post deals with the reality of what is actually seen when we look at the sights with one or with both eyes .

I don't want to get off topic , but percetion does play in how we look at sights



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RB6 wrote:

That's because they percieve that it's better or there is improvement closing one eye

But then, 90 % of perception is 10 % of reality


And your justification for that sweeping statement is what?

Do you mean perception ....... this is my definition , "You can twist perception, but reality won't budge" . Perception is how we look at the world through our karma, identity, upbringing, psychology, personality. Reality is the way it is.

I was asking for a justification, not a definition. I'm presuming that you didn't just make up the percentages.

RB6 wrote:The original post deals with the reality of what is actually seen when we look at the sights with one or with both eyes .

What is "seen". Is it the signals passed from the eyes to the brain or is it the way the brain interprets those signals. Either way, the answer for each person is not necessarily the same as for someone else.

It's not uncommon to see most air and free finalists shoot with both eyes open without any glasses or occluders. If many finalists shoot this way, then there must be a benifit. The benifit is a higher score. If that can be said then how much. Suppose in a full match a finalist can add one single point to his score with both eyes , then that finalist would surely embrace that product . If top shooters shoot with an occluded eye then there must be a benifit , but they don't , there is no benifit. Here's something to think about, serious world class shooters usually don't wear occluders, but serious club level shooters do..........


Training to shoot with both eyes open adds points. If a 90 % shooter is able to add a single point to their score without any loss of currency by simply training to do the deed , then who could refuse that. It's a freebe.
No cost , just time to try it , it applies to everyone. Some would be able to achieve success immediately and others may take longer, and some will never be able to for reasons many and varied.

I just realized that i'm repeating myself , so what's next is to try it and see for yourself. It's free . It's a bit of a minefield to shoot in this manner, but don't give up. Maybe a different thread to discuss the how's may be welcomed. I do have some ideas and tips

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RB6 wrote:It's not uncommon to see most air and free finalists shoot with both eyes open without any glasses or occluders.

Just looking at the Mens finalists at the last World Cup, Benning, we see that in the 50m Pistol, 5 were using a lens and 6 were using an occluder. In the AP60, 5 were using a lens and 5 were using an occluder.

In those events at that World Cup the majority of finalists were using a lens and the majority were using an occluder.

RB6 wrote:If many finalists shoot this way, then there must be a benifit.

Those Benning finalists, being the majority in those events, certainly seem to have decided what works best for them.

Spencer wrote:

Tzed250 wrote:...Having both eyes open while shooting pistol does not work for me. I am far sighted and use a corrective lens to bring the front sight into focus. When I flip up my occluder my left eye shifts focus to the target. With the occluder in place my right eye stays focused on the front sight. A frosted occluder allows light to enter my left eye without any distacting visual information.

if you are using the occluder to prevent the 'image problem', how can you claim to not have both eyes open [unless you are closing the aiming eye :) ]?

The post I quoted talked about both eyes open and having line of sight to the front sight. I was saying why that didn't work for me.

Sometimes I think I might shoot better if I did close the aiming eye...;)


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RB6 wrote:
It's not uncommon to see most air and free finalists shoot with both eyes open without any glasses or occluders.


Just looking at the Mens finalists at the last World Cup, Benning, we see that in the 50m Pistol, 5 were using a lens and 6 were using an occluder. In the AP60, 5 were using a lens and 5 were using an occluder.

In those events at that World Cup the majority of finalists were using a lens and the majority were using an occluder.

RB6 wrote:
If many finalists shoot this way, then there must be a benifit.


Those Benning finalists, being the majority in those events, certainly seem to have decided what works best for them.

Hmmm, well, then you may very well be right



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Tzed250 wrote:...Sometimes I think I might shoot better if I did close the aiming eye...;).

A frightening thought - but in a coaching 'experiment' a couple of years back we extended the 'take aim and then close eyes for 10 seconds to find out where the sight picture was when the eyes were opened' process to 'take aim, close eyes for 10 seconds and fire the shot with the eyes still closed' stage.

I found that I could hold the 9-ring on a precision target at 25m - which I cannot guarantee with the eyes open!

NOTE: it was under VERY carefully controlled conditions (a closed range, experienced personnel, one-on-one supervision, etc.)