I have 3!AAlex wrote:Where does the confusion about where the hand ends and wrist begins come from?
.....
Do not all hands have that line?
Support for the wrist
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
It looks pretty clear to me, too. The grip is NOT touching his wrist. It's contacting the fleshy part of the heel of his palm.
Where does the wrist start? Hold your arm up with your palm facing you. Now bend your wrist so that your fingers are facing you. Any part that bends is hand; any part that doesn't bend is wrist.
Regards,
Al B.
Where does the wrist start? Hold your arm up with your palm facing you. Now bend your wrist so that your fingers are facing you. Any part that bends is hand; any part that doesn't bend is wrist.
Regards,
Al B.
I thought it might have been providing support to the underside of his wrist. Again it may just be the camera angle but it looked like it was touching up to 1-2 inches up his forearm. Although it would not provide much support it could certainly provide a consistent reference point for hand/forearm alignment.
-
Shooting Kiwi
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:33 am
- Location: New Zealand
Seems like a case of badly formulated rule.
It's several decades since I learned my human anatomy, but Gray's (sic) Anatomy and other anatomical textbooks on the shelf have been consulted. The medical definition of the wrist is a bit woolly: it's called the carpus, and therefore includes the carpal bones. But when you break your wrist, it's usually the end of your radius. Wrist flexion and extension involve the radio-carpal and inter-carpal joints. However, the main movement occurs at the radio-carpal joints, in other words, at the end of the forearm bones. The sideways movement allowing 'wrist drop' when aiming doesn't really involve the inter-carpal articulations. So, from an anatomical terminological point of view, the definition of 'wrist' differs from a functional point of view.
From a functional point of view, one can infer that the rule-makers don't want the grip to bear over the bones of the forearm. With dropped wrist, this means, effectively, the ulna. Skin creases can't be relied upon to indicate what lies beneath. You can't easily feel the end of the radius, but the end of the ulna is the knobbly thing that sticks up on the little-finger side, on the back surface, beyond your watch-strap. This usually (a comprehensive rule would have to allow for those who have deformities, such as previous fractures, etc.!) lies nearer to the elbow than the end of the radius. Because the end of the radius is concave, the major articulation of the wrist therefore lies somewhat closer to the elbow than the end of the radius.
I'd therefore suggest that the rule be re-drafted to do something like draw a line around the forearm, at the highest point of the ulnar styloid, and disallow any grip that got closer than a couple of cm to that line, with the gun held in the shooting position.
On this basis, having eyeballed some of my grips, I'd say that the picture does not strongly suggest that the grip is illegal, but it's close.
It's several decades since I learned my human anatomy, but Gray's (sic) Anatomy and other anatomical textbooks on the shelf have been consulted. The medical definition of the wrist is a bit woolly: it's called the carpus, and therefore includes the carpal bones. But when you break your wrist, it's usually the end of your radius. Wrist flexion and extension involve the radio-carpal and inter-carpal joints. However, the main movement occurs at the radio-carpal joints, in other words, at the end of the forearm bones. The sideways movement allowing 'wrist drop' when aiming doesn't really involve the inter-carpal articulations. So, from an anatomical terminological point of view, the definition of 'wrist' differs from a functional point of view.
From a functional point of view, one can infer that the rule-makers don't want the grip to bear over the bones of the forearm. With dropped wrist, this means, effectively, the ulna. Skin creases can't be relied upon to indicate what lies beneath. You can't easily feel the end of the radius, but the end of the ulna is the knobbly thing that sticks up on the little-finger side, on the back surface, beyond your watch-strap. This usually (a comprehensive rule would have to allow for those who have deformities, such as previous fractures, etc.!) lies nearer to the elbow than the end of the radius. Because the end of the radius is concave, the major articulation of the wrist therefore lies somewhat closer to the elbow than the end of the radius.
I'd therefore suggest that the rule be re-drafted to do something like draw a line around the forearm, at the highest point of the ulnar styloid, and disallow any grip that got closer than a couple of cm to that line, with the gun held in the shooting position.
On this basis, having eyeballed some of my grips, I'd say that the picture does not strongly suggest that the grip is illegal, but it's close.
after many yrs of international shooting in rt, I can tell you officials do exercise there rights to stop shooters during the match, before and after to check anything they may think is outside the intent of the rules.
the rules are there to try to keep it as even as possible. some shooters try to get an advantage, officials are there to ensure we stay within the rules, if the rules dont cover it properly, the issue is sent to issf, they then may add an errata to the rules to cover the issue, and the rule book gets thicker.
from experience, if the rules are ambiguous to the intent, then the shooter is often given the benefit till it is cleared up. usually by the next world cup, so you have time to rectify the problem.
in the example shown, I would expect to be challenged if it was me with a grip like that.
his hand is so high into the grip, it appears there is no or very little wood above the hand, the hand is almost against the back of the action.
looks like there is a gap under the little finger.
it looks like it has been inspected many times before going by the stickers.
there appears to be no wrist crease.
I think most officials would take note of this grip at inspection as it would look somewhat different.
I would assume the gap under the little finger is to allow the hand to rotate around the grip, moving the wrist/arm off the grip to pass inspections.
its all speculation. never seen the pistol, and dont know the rules that well.
looks like he has gone to great lengths to get wrist support, is it a huge advantage?
the rules are there to try to keep it as even as possible. some shooters try to get an advantage, officials are there to ensure we stay within the rules, if the rules dont cover it properly, the issue is sent to issf, they then may add an errata to the rules to cover the issue, and the rule book gets thicker.
from experience, if the rules are ambiguous to the intent, then the shooter is often given the benefit till it is cleared up. usually by the next world cup, so you have time to rectify the problem.
in the example shown, I would expect to be challenged if it was me with a grip like that.
his hand is so high into the grip, it appears there is no or very little wood above the hand, the hand is almost against the back of the action.
looks like there is a gap under the little finger.
it looks like it has been inspected many times before going by the stickers.
there appears to be no wrist crease.
I think most officials would take note of this grip at inspection as it would look somewhat different.
I would assume the gap under the little finger is to allow the hand to rotate around the grip, moving the wrist/arm off the grip to pass inspections.
its all speculation. never seen the pistol, and dont know the rules that well.
looks like he has gone to great lengths to get wrist support, is it a huge advantage?
Me Three........
Yep Al, I see the same thing as you do...It's not touching his wrist...AT ALL.alb wrote:It looks pretty clear to me, too. The grip is NOT touching his wrist. It's contacting the fleshy part of the heel of his palm.
Where does the wrist start? Hold your arm up with your palm facing you. Now bend your wrist so that your fingers are facing you. Any part that bends is hand; any part that doesn't bend is wrist.
Regards,
Al B.
Tony G
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Just a few more pictures from the Olympic final to show how dangerous it is to draw conclusions from photographs. They appear to show the grip touching the wrist (or beyond). I refuse to believe that all of the shooters in the final were cheating and not caught by the judges. It's much more likely that camera angles give a wrong impression.
edit note: Sorry, I obviously don't know how to use the image feature. You'll have to copy & paste.
edit note: Sorry, I obviously don't know how to use the image feature. You'll have to copy & paste.
-
ausdiver99
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:39 am
- Location: Singapore
This brings up hand size. I have large hands. Dare I say Extra Large hands? When I look at the front of the palm plate position in the pic, I believe that this hand is small. Dare I say Extra Small?
There's a chance that the grip is stock (aside from the basic filler and coutours) and that this is simply the way it hits. Short of asking the competitor to modify the stock grip by cutting a significant portion of the back off to meet the definition of the rule... it looks like one of the SIGNIFICANT benefits of extremely small hands, and nobody having the guts to require the comptitor to hack off the back of the stock grip to meet the rule.
Oz
There's a chance that the grip is stock (aside from the basic filler and coutours) and that this is simply the way it hits. Short of asking the competitor to modify the stock grip by cutting a significant portion of the back off to meet the definition of the rule... it looks like one of the SIGNIFICANT benefits of extremely small hands, and nobody having the guts to require the comptitor to hack off the back of the stock grip to meet the rule.
Oz
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Sure, I agree. It's just a more out of the box thought that most haven't ever consider; To require a stock grip be modified in the way that would be required. This has slipped through the cracks until now.David Levene wrote:If the grip touches the wrist then that is what must be done. The problem is defining the wrist.
It will be interesting to see if anyone calls the shooter on this one in the future. You're at a match, potentially shooting for a medal against this competitor... will you submit the protest?
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
I'm not sure if the grip is wrong. Look at the links I referenced above and you will see that at least 3 of the other Olympic finalists SEEM to have the same problem. I do not believe that at least half the finalists will have illegal grips.Oz wrote:It will be interesting to see if anyone calls the shooter on this one in the future. You're at a match, potentially shooting for a medal against this competitor... will you submit the protest?
-
Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Well, I usually don't post on "rules" or "equipment" threads (other than to say "quit fussing over that crap and work on technique") but in this case I have to toss in $0.02 US (much less in international currency futures markets of course!).
1. Pictures *can* be misleading . . . and subject to interpretation
2. Top comeptitors/coaches *will* exploit the laxity of the judges (in any sport)
So
If the judges at the top matches are being lax in enforcing "articicial support" rules where it comes to wrist support, one would expect all the top shooters to adapt and begin "cheating" (is it really cheating to adapt your interpretation of the rules to fit the interpretation currently being enforced by the judges?).
Now
Back to the picture- it certainly and clearly looks to me- based on that picture- that unless the individual is a freak of nature, the edge of the grip is contacting the fleshy part of the arm "upstream" of any bones that could charitably and liberally be considered part of the hand and/or wrist.
However
If I were a line judge . . . would I raise the "busllshit flag" during the match? That would take a big set of balls- since apparently, all of the other judges have been turning a blind eye to that "interpretation" for some time.
Look, the judges have a tough enough job as it is. "Going against the grain" is simply not human nature. If one of hte top-rankjed shooters showed up with a length of PVC pipe on their arm lashed up to a chicken wire cage on their torso, most judges WOULD LET IT SLIDE!
"Even at the olympics?"
NO- ESPECIALLY at the olympics!
Would *you* want to be the judge that "stirred up all that controversy?"
Of course not.
I go back and look at that picture and think " . . . it's incredible that someone would be allowed to get away with that . . . "
Then again- they are only operating WITHIN THE RULES AS CURRENTLY BEING ENFORCED!
1. Pictures *can* be misleading . . . and subject to interpretation
2. Top comeptitors/coaches *will* exploit the laxity of the judges (in any sport)
So
If the judges at the top matches are being lax in enforcing "articicial support" rules where it comes to wrist support, one would expect all the top shooters to adapt and begin "cheating" (is it really cheating to adapt your interpretation of the rules to fit the interpretation currently being enforced by the judges?).
Now
Back to the picture- it certainly and clearly looks to me- based on that picture- that unless the individual is a freak of nature, the edge of the grip is contacting the fleshy part of the arm "upstream" of any bones that could charitably and liberally be considered part of the hand and/or wrist.
However
If I were a line judge . . . would I raise the "busllshit flag" during the match? That would take a big set of balls- since apparently, all of the other judges have been turning a blind eye to that "interpretation" for some time.
Look, the judges have a tough enough job as it is. "Going against the grain" is simply not human nature. If one of hte top-rankjed shooters showed up with a length of PVC pipe on their arm lashed up to a chicken wire cage on their torso, most judges WOULD LET IT SLIDE!
"Even at the olympics?"
NO- ESPECIALLY at the olympics!
Would *you* want to be the judge that "stirred up all that controversy?"
Of course not.
I go back and look at that picture and think " . . . it's incredible that someone would be allowed to get away with that . . . "
Then again- they are only operating WITHIN THE RULES AS CURRENTLY BEING ENFORCED!
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
I really wish I could post the pictures I mentioned earlier, to make it easier to see what I am talking about.Steve Swartz wrote:
I go back and look at that picture and think " . . . it's incredible that someone would be allowed to get away with that . . . "
If the pictures are showing the facts (which I am not convinced of) then, to paraphrase you Steve, " . . . it's incredible that at least half of the Olympic finalists would be allowed to get away with that . . . "
http://www.issf-shooting.com/javascript ... _5a.jpg#25
http://www.issf-shooting.com/javascript ... _5a.jpg#29
http://www.issf-shooting.com/javascript ... _5a.jpg#20
I find it notoriously difficult to judge any grip parameters from the offhand side - and all these pictures are taken from the left... If you look at the pic of Pang Wei from the right side (it's obviously the same guy, with the same pistol, and according to the text where I got it from from the same Olympic competition), IMHO the grip sure looks borderline (which I would expect from any top athlete), but probably legal...
[/img]
[/img]
- Attachments
-
- Pang wei.jpg (17.17 KiB) Viewed 2883 times
-
Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
-
Shooting Kiwi
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:33 am
- Location: New Zealand